Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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I think Gaza needs 10x the funding
but I don't think we can trust UNWRA with it
https://www.timesofisrael.com/directly-b...
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Beneath the Gaza Strip headquarters of the controversial United Nations agency for Palestinian refugees, known commonly as UNRWA, the Hamas terror group hid one of its most significant assets, the Israeli military has revealed.
In my more cynical moments I actually wonder if the Western World's general hands off approach (or oftentimes support) of fundamentalist Islamism in the Middle East is a Machiavellian plot to make sure this part of the world never becomes a serious threat to Western global hegemony.
Although acts of terrorism such as 9/11 can be problematic, generally nations which go all in on Stone Age value systems are completely uncompetitive with adva
It's generally a mistake to use the concept of 'national interest' imo. It works better in some cases, worse in others.
In the US I'd say it works especially poorly, as our gov is controlled by corporations, which might not be based here and even if they are, do not care about the population.
Iraq, for example, was a terrible blow to our long term well being as a people, but a great success for Wall Street and politicians.
Anyway, in that light, yes. Weak states, crooked despots etc are good in the ME as you can pay a few people off and loot the oil.
Libya is the best example. While Gaddafi was no Saint, he took over a dirt poor country and used their resources to create a prosperous state with free hc and higher education as well as many other benefits for the GP.
For th US (meaning, for Wall Street), this is the worst crime imaginable so he was a major enemy and we eventually succeeded in destroying all that progress and sending them back to the stone age.
Of course, this is of no benefit to the average American. While it's Machiavellian it is probably less a long term plot than a range of parties pursuing their own interests. But there are people in think tanks, papers, etc. Whose job is to create narratives about how these things are good.
Nationalism or US military supremecy do factor in as well. Anyway, I basically agree with you, but it's just really complicated.
Who ever would have thought Hamas had a server control center under UNWRA hq
I don't understand why the organization exists to begin with.
Probably to give people jobs in Gaza. Hamas probably pays better
UNHCR was made a year after UNWRA apparently. It all got too political for my current attention span after that. I am guessing a lot of arguing between Palestine being a special case (certainly true), and UNHCR being the organization which should handle all of these situations, which are all going to be special cases.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/10...
Israeli strikes kill 44 Palestinians in Rafah after Netanyahu warns of ground invasion
so if the IDF wanted them to go south , how further south did they mean ?
They obviously mean into egypt but egypt won't open rafah and takes zero responsibility
if you searched your replies from months ago , you and others said it was the Palestinians civilians fault for dying for not leaving northern gaza . now that they are at the southern end of it , they should all go to Egypt is what you are saying? and its now the Egyptian's government fault that they are still dying.
Libya is the best example. While Gaddafi was no Saint, he took over a dirt poor country and used their resources to create a prosperous state with free hc and higher education as well as many other benefits for the GP.
Can you post actual, trustworthy data on their prosperity, like a chart showing their GDP per capita over the decades? Are you libyan? Did you live there under Gaddafi?
Think Venezuela, an oil rich country that was run by a dictator (not ruthless as others, but still, political dissidency wasn't allowed). Its economy grew during the early 2000s boom, they got the exact things you mentioned like free HC etc. Til the world changed and it stopped growing and turned very, very badly downwards. Even if the economy grew a lot for a few years and they got the things you mentioned, can you really call a place like that prosperous? Even though, yes, the US has a hand in part of the political mess that happened afterwards.
I think Hamas takes what Hamas needs in Gaza. There is nothing UNWRA does without the blessing of Hamas. And if Hamas wants to build under an UNWRA building so that UNWRA can shield it, that's a no brainer.
I think UNWRA does try to help civilians, constantly. But Hamas gets first pick on anything UNWRA gets (right at the source), and that's from money to supplies to anything in between. And then I think the Venn diagram on Hamas vs UNWRA has some significant overlap of manpower, but more operationally. Fighters need support, and my guess is UNWRA plays a big part in supporting them (which is what you outline). And that's problematic enough. It doesn't have to be more sinister than that. But also anyone who didn't think that's how it worked on the ground is dreaming. The place is so dense and Hamas has such ultimate control. This is the only way it could work, in practice (and in theory).
The extent of the human shielding is way worse than Israel imagined btw. Actually getting in there, it's far worse than anyone believed.
if you searched your replies from months ago , you and others said it was the Palestinians civilians fault for dying for not leaving northern gaza . now that they are at the southern end of it , they should all go to Egypt is what you are saying? and its now the Egyptian's government fault that they are still dying.
Its a war
Can you name another war where a country was invaded and ZERO REFUGEES left?
so basically what you were writing months ago isnt valid ? you want them all to head to evypt ?
Not permanently (although i do think part of sinai SHOULD be part of a future palestinian state)
But refugees leave countries during wars. That happens all the time. But in this war, it's a crime to even suggest it!
Who exactly is in control of Hamas and where do they live? Following thread, I'm under the impression they're billionaires in ivory towers and obviously nowhere near Gaza?
So who is harboring them? And why? ELI5...
I sort of don't understand how decimating every human being in Gaza removes Hamas from power. The wealthy elite keep their wealth no matter who dies, no? Why would they care?
Also, who's to say Hamas 2.0 does not come about? I think
They cannot run the government
Period
I like the exile deal but they are likely too dumb to take it
“Period” lol
Why is it lol? Hamas are a bunch of nutty intransigent fanatics who launch rockets at Israel any chance they get, long before their recent pogrom. I can absolutely understand Israel not seeing them as a viable government. They're an obstacle to peace. You can't have what's essentially a death cult for whom any form of compromise is an alien concept, in government. I don;t think it's outlandish at all to state they can't be in government period.
