Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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UNRWA commissioner-general, Phillippe Lazzarini, denied that the agency was aware that there was a Hamas tunnel under its Gaza City HQ after the IDF and Shin Bet revealed a tunnel system and data center there.
UNRWA is facing growing administrative hurdles from Israel, with a shipment amounting to a month's supply of food blocked in port, Lazzarini said.
Hard to believe unrwa didn't know about the tunnels and data center
Or the wires running from your building down into the floor and below
hamas crossed the border with the intention of raping and killing their way through thousands of civilians, and succeeded. they dont get to be part of the government after doing that. their choice is die or be killed
hamas believe it is their number one godly duty to drive the jews into the sea, and they act accordingly
israel pursued a policy of containment for a long time, but oct 7 made that policy untenable. hamas are finished
I think this operation has shown that Israel cannot get rid of Hamas through military means.
I agree that Oct 7 has proven that containment is not a reasonable way of ending the conflict. A two state solution is also a solution that is different from containment. It is a less extreme and more likely to succeed solution than exterminating Hamas and destroying the entirety of Gaza in the process followed by occupation in order to kill any remaining (and reconstituting) elements of Hamas.
hamas believe it is their number one godly duty to drive the jews into the sea, and they act accordingly
israel pursued a policy of containment for a long time, but oct 7 made that policy untenable. hamas are finished
In which sense do they act accordingly?
An attack that doesn't eliminate your enemy but rather energizes him to go allin against you isn't a rational act if your plan is to eliminate your enemy.
If instead you are paid to recurrently create trouble the act looks rational.
Hamas is a terrorist organization and surely many among the troops believe their god given duty is to send the Jews away, but the financial investors in that organization have other aims evidently, and Hamas leadership answers to that not to god
Hamas's attack failed. Had the Houthis, Hezbollah, and even state actors joined in with Hamas then Israel would be in a fight for survival.
This doesn't mean that the threat isn't existential, if anything it shows the opposite: factions in the Middle East are willing to roll the dice when it comes to driving Israel out. Things could easily play out differently next time.
Hamas's attack failed. Had the Houthis, Hezbollah, and even state actors joined in with Hamas then Israel would be in a fight for survival.
This doesn't mean that the threat isn't existential, if anything it shows the opposite: factions in the Middle East are willing to roll the dice when it comes to driving Israel out. Things could easily play out differently next time.
Which is why Israel cannot message makw a deal with hanas still part of the government
It needs to be known that if a govt tries to end Israel, they will be ended
People who make these kinds of arguments shouldn't really have a problem with 9/11.
It's actually a much shorter line between the pentagon, wtc or congress to violent attacks on civilians than from some hospital.
Likewise, as most Americans initially supported the Iraq war, it would have been ok for Russia or China to nuke a few American cities.
People who make these kinds of arguments shouldn't really have a problem with 9/11.
It's actually a much shorter line between the pentagon, wtc or congress to violent attacks on civilians than from some hospital.
Likewise, as most Americans initially supported the Iraq war, it would have been ok for Russia or China to nuke a few American cities.
Did the DoD shoot rockets from the WTC to other countries? Are you real?
What the flying **** is ES2 talking about? Is he trying to say mets is arguing the hospital was fair game because the civilians there supported Hamas?
That's not the argument. The argument is there was no way to reach Hamas without attacking the hospital because Hamas made sure to hide behind civilians and sensitive targets.
The comparison to 9/11 is just grotesque. There are too many obvious differences that I can only assume you're being willfully ignorant when you try to draw such an asinine analogy.
Btw since Hamas knows that Israel will hit an hospital anyway, if they shoot from there or hide there, then any civilian casualty in those buildings when Israel correctly retaliates is 100% a responsibility of Hamas and no one else.
What the flying **** is ES2 talking about? Is he trying to say mets is arguing the hospital was fair game because the civilians there supported Hamas?
That's not the argument. The argument is there was no way to reach Hamas without attacking the hospital because Hamas made sure to hide behind civilians and sensitive targets.
The comparison to 9/11 is just grotesque. There are too many obvious differences that I can only assume you're being wi
Thank you
What the flying **** is ES2 talking about? Is he trying to say mets is arguing the hospital was fair game because the civilians there supported Hamas?
That's not the argument. The argument is there was no way to reach Hamas without attacking the hospital because Hamas made sure to hide behind civilians and sensitive targets.
The comparison to 9/11 is just grotesque. There are too many obvious differences that I can only assume you're being wi
Probably the biggest difference is that Israel didn't literally make Oct 7th happen.
It would probably largely be different people reporting (with some overlap), but people would still be reporting imo.
Btw since Hamas knows that Israel will hit an hospital anyway, if they shoot from there or hide there, then any civilian casualty in those buildings when Israel correctly retaliates is 100% a responsibility of Hamas and no one else.
Police and armies have a responsibility for how they handle hostage situations or whenever there are innocent people in peril. They cannot just waive any responsibility for their actions
It's not 100% responsibility for either side. I believe Hamas is more responsible, but Israel is still making a choice.
What the flying **** is ES2 talking about? Is he trying to say mets is arguing the hospital was fair game because the civilians there supported Hamas?
That's not the argument. The argument is there was no way to reach Hamas without attacking the hospital because Hamas made sure to hide behind civilians and sensitive targets.
The comparison to 9/11 is just grotesque. There are too many obvious differences that I can only assume you're being wi
The US has killed millions of civilians in the middle east, latin America, Vietnam etc.
The people ultimately responsible are at least arguably politicians in congress, the military and Wall Street.
If you can target hospitals to get to hamas, why would it be wrong for someone to target the pentagon?
You guys are the ones arguing for blowing up hospitals because supposedly some bad people are in them so kill em all. There are equally bad people in all the 9/11 targets.
This was not the case in Bosnia or Northern Ireland, can you point to an instance where it has worked?
Germany
Japan
And Bosnia should count too. The Serbs were bombed into complete withdrawal. I am not sure why you're writing them off.
It is collective punishment, which I am completely against. Hamas is an entity with many factions, not all of them evil. There is a lot of evidence that the political faction was not even aware that the military faction was planning October 7.
Why is this relevant? If the military wing is in charge, committing atrocities, won't agree to disarmament, can't be reasoned with, and can't be controlled by the political wing, then you just have to destroy it.
As far as messaging goes, I believe that Gazans are as deterred as they are likely to be. I believe they reached that level quite early into the current destruction. Any further destruction is a recruitment campaign for the extreme elements of Hamas, and does not further serve to deter. What do you believe further destruction of Gaza will accomplish? Do you think it's realistic that Israel can remove Hamas, and ensure that no Hamas 2.0s ri
If you can't deter their will to attack, then you just have to destroy their ability to attack. Over and over and grind them down if necessary.
What I do think is possible is ridding Hamas of its most extreme elements. Giving the option for political representation as incentive for the political elements of Hamas to rid Hamas of the extremist elements is a far better way of combating the extreme elements of Hamas than the complete destruction of Gaza followed by an occupation, especially when Israel cannot actually perform that occupation and no one seems to want to do it. This won
You don't seem to grasp Hamas has spent the past 20 years making it impossible for it to be anything but the Hamas of today. It's their brand identity. They simply don't have a reason to exist as a political force if they become just like the PA and they know it.
Israel has backed off over and over going for containment because it didn't want an outright war, giving up more and more over the decades to the point where their day to day is literally just lying low and let Hamas shoot rockets at them. Think about the absurdity of the situation.
Well, they've decided no more. Reputation hit or not, they will, if they were responsible to their own citizens' well-being, and ironically, if they cared about the well-being of Palestinians, they will do whatever it takes to destroy Hamas.
It will be a **** ton of pain for everyone involved and everyone watching. But nobody, literally nobody, except maybe Iran, benefits from the continued existence of Hamas at this point. Even the Houthis and Hizbollah are probably not too happy right now.
If someone wanted to attack the us because we are bombing their country, they should target the pentagon or a military base. Our soldiers aren't hiding in hospitals and grammar schools
