Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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It's either ok to masacre countless civilians for the crimes of their leaders, or a faction within them, or it isn't.
It seems to me the logical conclusion of these type of moral relativism/social Darwinism arguments is that life is a zero sum game of winners versus losers, so if we have the ability to be winners we should. In other words, these kind of arguments seem to actually justify total warfare.
It seems to me that believing you follow some sort of moral norms, even if not fully applied, still allows for more humane behavior and outcomes than moral relativism taken to the extreme.
It seems to me the logical conclusion of these type of moral relativism/social Darwinism arguments is that life is a zero sum game of winners versus losers, so if we have the ability to be winners we should. In other words, these kind of arguments seem to actually justify total warfare.
It seems to me that believing you follow some sort of moral norms, even if not fully applied, still allows for more humane behavior and outcomes than moral
There are plenty of positive sum iterations (in the present and in the future) and some zero sum iterations, technology tends to increase the number of positive sum iterations (because it sometimes removes resource scarcity at least in the future), but that doesn't mean every human interaction can be framed as positive sum, because sometimes resource scarcity is unavoidable
Terrible take.
Would you have said the same thing about the Nazis? When the allies rebuilt Germany, should they have tried to let the Nazis continue as part of the government, as long as it wasn't the most 'extreme' Nazis?
It sure seems like that's what you would have recommended, but I sure think it would not have been more successful.
No, I would not have recommended that. I don't think the Nazi party and Hamas are really comparable in the way that you're suggesting.
One issue is if one side is using guerrilla warfare, the other side needs to to be successful
Of course US would announce blowing up the capitol is terrorism. If Us is trying to overthrow certain governments and they retaliate that way, is it?
........
Has Israel taken enough precautions, especially at the beginning of the war? Most would agree probably not. It is a risk/reward thing though. Rather then putting their soldiers at risk, they used tactics that resulted in civilian death.
I have no issue with Israeli tactics being criticized. And I'll have no issue if there will be a tribunal after the war.
That still doesn't mean israel should abandon the war. Hamas still needs to be out of gaza
2 hostages rescued alive in Rafah, and this will be enough for many people to claim it was completly reasonable to evacuate the entire population (or tell them to, then they decide) then start carpet bombing. It surely is for me.
These are the tradeoffs majorities agree with, whether posters in this forum agree or not.
2 hostages rescued alive in Rafah, and this will be enough for many people to claim it was completly reasonable to evacuate the entire population (or tell them to, then they decide) then start carpet bombing. It surely is for me.
These are the tradeoffs majorities agree with, whether posters in this forum agree or not.
You never answered the question I asked you
How many deaths has to occur for Israel to be on the wrong side of the conflict?
You never answered the question I asked you
How many deaths has to occur for Israel to be on the wrong side of the conflict?
I said there is no amount of collateral deaths, killed in areas or buildings where terrorists are as well, that would make Israel "wrong".
I thought my position on that was very clear.
Gaza has been on the wrong side of the conflict for at least 20 years. They voted into power the religious militia that declared Holy War against Israel, and then spent the last 20 years conducting said war. That the war is going so poorly, despite Israel not trying very hard to win until last October, doesn't mean Gaza hasn't been wrong this whole time.
Fwiw the Italia musc festival San Remo just ended (it is kinda the super bowl around here, with massive numbers of watchers and regularly the most watched tv program year long). That's on public tv channels (think BBC?), RAI.
A young singer of Arab origins who made top 5 said "stop to the genocide" when he had the time to make comments post his performance.
The Israeli ambassador to Italy officially complained the day later (today), and today
When an ambassador, not even a citizen of the country but an outsider, can silence dissidence. Good bye freedom of speech, I guess.
Not sure why we keep having this argument but there is no quantitative answer. Hamas cannot remain in power
As far as who would ruin a tribunals, good question.
Israel needs to just tell Gazans to tell the IDF where Hamas is hiding their tunnels. Bounties and promises of resettling families even. Millions of dollars for bringing Sinwar’s head to the IDF. This is like the basic of the basic divide and conquer.
And aid has to flow more. Make the Palestinians eat the food at the point of distribution so Hamas can’t just steal the stuff.
“Whatever it takes” may be justified but Israel still has a moral obligation to minimize collateral damage where it can. Feeding Palestinians while Hamas stands by is good optically too.
Not sure why we keep having this argument but there is no quantitative answer. Hamas cannot remain in power
As far as who would ruin a tribunals, good question.
Nobody is going to run the tribunals because nobody with half a brain likes Hamas and nobody with a functional cerebral cortex thinks Israel is actually guilty of systemic war crimes.
The most we are going to get is another farcical trial that pays lip service to Hamas starting it and Israel should have exercised more restraint, somehow.
In that case it’s going to be a group of random judges and lawyers from all over the world serving on the tribunal.
Killing children or hostages to save even more children or hostages in the future is incorrect but not because it is applying game theory. Game theory like other math, when properly applied helps people. It is unfair to the subject to accuse its practioners of mental illness if they are using it correctly to do good. The fact that "game" is part of its title doesn't mean that those who are using it correctly actually think the subject matte
Not keen on the mass torture approach. If we're going for extreme solutions then how about just ignoring them?
Israel needs to just tell Gazans to tell the IDF where Hamas is hiding their tunnels. Bounties and promises of resettling families even. Millions of dollars for bringing Sinwar’s head to the IDF. This is like the basic of the basic divide and conquer.
And aid has to flow more. Make the Palestinians eat the food at the point of distribution so Hamas can’t just steal the stuff.
“Whatever it takes” may be justified but Israel still has a moral
yes anyone helping the efforts of terrorist eradication has to be well compensated, family protected and so on.
Here is but an example where western countries could guarantee green card-equivalent relocation (and lifetime stipend) to the families of any palestinian who provides actionable intel that leads to the capture or killing of an hamas terrorist.
You never answered the question I asked you
How many deaths has to occur for Israel to be on the wrong side of the conflict?
I said there is no amount of collateral deaths, killed in areas or buildings where terrorists are as well, that would make Israel "wrong".
I thought my position on that was very clear.
I didn’t ask about deaths with qualifiers. I asked how many deaths.
Gaza has been on the wrong side of the conflict for at least 20 years. They voted into power the religious militia that declared Holy War against Israel, and then spent the last 20 years conducting said war. That the war is going so poorly, despite Israel not trying very hard to win until last October, doesn't mean Gaza hasn't been wrong this whole time.
I asked how many deaths
yes anyone helping the efforts of terrorist eradication has to be well compensated, family protected and so on.
Here is but an example where western countries could guarantee green card-equivalent relocation (and lifetime stipend) to the families of any palestinian who provides actionable intel that leads to the capture or killing of an hamas terrorist.
Smart man
"Free Palestine" was written on the gun belonging to a woman who opened fire at celebrity pastor Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church in Houston, according to a law enforcement official briefed on the investigation.
However, a motive behind the Sunday afternoon shooting has not been determined. Sources said investigators are feverishly going through the social media and writings belonging to the suspect, described as a woman between 30 and 35 years old.
It's amazing. It says free Palestine so the cause is not determined yet. If it said am yisrael chai I'm sure they would say it was racist
It is actually appropriate to investigate the motives because crazy people do exist, and even among them there is a wide range of personalities and motives.
It is actually not the same if this person ends up being linked to militant extremist muslim groups, or is just someone with very deep problems in her life which picked up the latest controversial topic of the day and went crazy because of the propaganda videos everyone can find about the purported genocide and whatnot.
Egypt Threatens Netanyahu with End of Ca...
We're at a critically moment -- waiting to see if the IDF drives Gazans into the Sinai as the right wants to do.
