Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Ok. Sad that 4 people died and sad that there are hostages, but what is your point? No one thinks Israelis don't care about Israelis. How many innocent people did they kill to save those hostages?
Hamas should release the hostages
It means that yes 4 soldiers gave up their lives to save 2 hostages which sucks by that's what they are supposed to do in a war. Unfortunately that's a fact, in a war you value different lives differently based on he mission
Countries now know that if you take Israelis hostages they will kill until they get released
I don't think Israel should target civilians of
besides the nazis and the fasciit countries that supported them (italy, japan etc) it is very hard for people to kill other people. It is almost an unnatural thing. Even with guns they have found it takes alot of convincing to get people to kill other people, often times soldiers shoot at the ground or miss on purpose; thats how unnatural killing another person is.
so clearly we are hard programmed to give value to other humans.
I mean i don't know how to answer this because it's so completly against all historical proofs everywhere in the world it's hard to decide where to begin.
Mass graves of people killed violently are found everywhere by archeologists, and the only thing that historically prevented more murders to happen was disease that killed the losing side before they could all get genocided.
From american natives meeting english and spanish people to hunters-gatherers meeting neolithic farmers, the story is always the same
I mean i don't know how to answer this because it's so completly against all historical proofs everywhere in the world it's hard to decide where to begin.
Mass graves of people killed violently are found everywhere by archeologists, and the only thing that historically prevented more murders to happen was disease that killed the losing side before they could all get genocided.
From american natives meeting english and spanish people to hunte
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/08/3...
The conclusion of the Battle of Gettysburg saw the Confederate Army in full retreat, forced to abandon all of its dead and most of its wounded. This left the Union Army and the local citizens with the job of cleanup. It was when the weapons were being gathered and added to a master list of enemy possessions found that people started to notice something strange.
The numbers we have today state that at least 27,574 rifles were recovered, although some sources claim the number to be as high as 37,000. Of the weapons that were salvaged, an incredible 24,000 rifles were still loaded (that’s either 87% or 63%, depending on which estimate you accept.) Of the total number, half had been loaded more than once, and a quarter had been reloaded multiple times. Apparently, one poor soldier had reloaded his weapon twenty-three times, but the weird thing is that he never fired a single shot.
Read that again: he reloaded his weapon, but didn’t shoot at all, and he wasn’t the only one to do this. Now at first glance, this doesn’t make any sense. However, there are some theories to explain this strange occurrence. One theory suggests that the soldiers, for whatever reason, were not firing, but wanted to appear as if they were participating in the volleys. The deception would work too. In that situation, there would be thick smoke, mass confusion, and deafening sounds of weapons discharging. A soldier would not be likely to notice even if it was his neighbor in the firing line was not shooting. All a person would have to do would be to mimic the motion of kickback as they pretended to fire.
This theory, as well as a possible reason, can be found in Dave Grossman’s book On Killing, which details the psychological impact of killing in war. He came to the conclusion that the soldiers might have been unable or unwilling to shoot at the Union Army. Instead, they would have intentionally fired over the heads of their enemies or would have double-loaded their weapons so that they were unusable. Another author who uses this theory is Paddy Griffin. In her book, Battle Tactics of the Civil War, Griffin suggests other possible reasons for the loaded rifles. It could be, she argues, that the high rate of misfire with Civil War-era rifles combined with many soldiers’ inability to reload properly in battle conditions caused a large number to be unusable.
Loading such a Springfield 1861 could be difficult even under calm conditions. It was not only complex but also time-consuming. In battle, soldiers were likely to panic, lose focus, or act in fear. Thus, they would fail to load properly and then misfire. If the soldier forgot to insert the percussion cap, which is the final step before firing, the gun would appear to have fired successfully. On top of that, rifles were prone to overheating and malfunctions, without outside influence. Their rate of misfire only increases with each successful shot. If a gun did malfunction, it could have been abandoned, and a new weapon could be claimed. The problem with this is that the new weapon could turn out to be a discard itself. The soldier would reload the newly acquired weapon only to find that it cannot fire, and then immediately drop the double-loaded rifle.
so once again, how many Palestinians have to die until israel says wow this is too many?
so far by the numbers
Palestinians killed about 500 israelis, and they had 50 hostages?
Israelis killed 30k palestinian CIVILIANS, and they have 1000 hostages?
I don't think the Israelis are looking at it as a pure numbers game like you are, with the intent of achieving some balance in the number of deaths.
They want to ensure another Oct 7 can't happen again, and get their hostages back. If doing that required killing all of the Palestinians they would probably be fine with that. Notice some nuance though, that's different than it being their goal to do that. It also doesn't mean that if they keep going until they kill x number they'll achieve their goals.
Abbas says Hamas should agree a ceasefire and release the hostages. Netanyahu says there's no point talking to Hamas at present and Israel won't send delegates to the Cairo conference. Families of the hostages don't like Netanyahu's position. Mohammed Dahlan, Palestinian adviser to the UAE, says Abbas has to go and the Palestinian Authority needs a new leader -- 'No Abbas, no Hamas.' Possibly the new leader he has in mind is himself.
Jeremy Bowen of the BBC has remarked that the IDF have released most of their reservists from duty and would have to call them back up for an all-out assault on Rafah, so there might be quite a lot of posturing going on, on all sides.
I mean i don't know how to answer this because it's so completly against all historical proofs everywhere in the world it's hard to decide where to begin.
Mass graves of people killed violently are found everywhere by archeologists, and the only thing that historically prevented more murders to happen was disease that killed the losing side before they could all get genocided.
From american natives meeting english and spanish people to hunte
117 billion people have lived. How many ended up in mass graves?
I don't think the Israelis are looking at it as a pure numbers game like you are, with the intent of achieving some balance in the number of deaths.
They want to ensure another Oct 7 can't happen again, and get their hostages back. If doing that required killing all of the Palestinians they would probably be fine with that. Notice some nuance though, that's different than it being their goal to do that. It also doesn't mean that if they keep
As all decent people would do if it was about their security
Four people have been killed in an "extensive wave" of Israeli air strikes in Lebanon launched after Hezbollah rocket fire killed a soldier in Israel.
A woman and two children were killed in the southern Lebanese town of Souaneh, state media and security sources said.
A man who Hezbollah identified as one of its fighters was killed in Aadchit.
Israel's military said it hit Hezbollah infrastructure in response to a deadly rocket attack on its base in the northern Israeli town of Safed.
Hezbollah fighters have exchanged fire with Israeli forces almost every day along the border since the start of the war between Israel and the Palestinian group Hamas in the Gaza Strip in October.
35k Israeli civilian* deaths would absolutely be criticized by the same people in the same manner. All you’re demonstrating here is a blind spot for actually understanding those you’re debating.
Crossnerd, on Oct 8th before Israel raised a finger, people rallied in celebration all over the world.
"resistance!"
"Intifada!"
"Palestine will be free"
Before any of the civilian deaths. So all your posting although cute, doesn't line up with what actually happened IRL.
I never take your sacrificing my family option. I dont need to unveil to hold this position.Nor would I want/expect anyone else to. Again no unveiling.
It's a moral position that fits with Rawl. It may also fit with utilitarianism but definitely not the simplistic adding up version which would very crudley say that 4 is greater than 3.
Crossnerd, on Oct 8th before Israel raised a finger, people rallied in celebration all over the world.
"resistance!"
"Intifada!"
"Palestine will be free"
Before any of the civilian deaths. So all your posting although cute, doesn't line up with what actually happened IRL.
Israel didn't retaliate for 3 weeks, but the anti semetiem on canpuses started oct 8
I have a lot of questions and comments for the "life is a life" people, aka you'd swap the lives of your tribe/countrymen/family for less deaths from another group. I do believe there will be cases where that could prove out. But consider me skeptical of it working in all the cases I bring up later.
But till I have time for that, I have a question.
Let's say that through some big tech innovation, like some virus delivered by drone or someth
Personally, I would find a similar slaughter of Israeli civilians just as bad.
There are some people who view Isreal as an oppressive and racist state, and think they sort of deserve whatever they get, in the same way some think Palestinians deserve whatever they get for supporting Hamas and being homophobic or whatever.
My ex wife is Brazilian and said many there celebrated 9/11, as the US imposed a brutal dictatorship on them in the past, and it was exhilarating to see the bully get a black eye.
I think many, but not all, who do things like this are sort of acting out. If they met an orphan they'd snap out of it.
Another issue is that many people criticize Isreal because it is less obvious. In the US and I guess other places, we grew up consuming propaganda and it still dominates mainstream outlets.
So it actually needs to be argued that the US and alies do bad things and that Muslims/Arabs are mostly just normal people. While we've all heard about the evils of Islamists endlessly, from movies, MSM, politicians, etc. And it doesn't really need to be argued that 9/11 was bad.
Some people overreact to learning one narrative is false and jump to believing the opposite is true.
I never take your sacrificing my family option. I dont need to unveil to hold this position.Nor would I want/expect anyone else to. Again no unveiling.
It's a moral position that fits with Rawl. It may also fit with utilitarianism but definitely not the simplistic adding up version which would very crudley say that 4 is greater than 3.
No wait, with the veil on it's 3 random people vs 4 random people, it's a no brainer.
"First Principles" is often a very useful way of analyzing things like thought experiments are, but using them as an override for actual evaluation of unique situations is something idiots do.
