2024 WSOP!

Depends on what is most important to you. If it’s convenience on breaks or just ease of access to the cages and facilities, then HS or Paris, for sure.

I assume Paris is a bit nicer than HS, but I’v never stayed at the former, so I can’t speak to the differences in rooms.

If you’re looking for a more upscale stay, then Caesar’s, Nobu or Cromwell are fairly close. But certainly not as convenient as being right there.

It’s also worth going into each one to see what rooms are available for free. Sometimes only the base level, sometimes upgraded rooms.

I don’t think adding a starting day will increase the field size by 50%, but I guess we’ll see.

Anyhow congrats on your deep run last year. Looking over the results, though, it represents a troubling trend at the WSOP (IMO) of making long events even longer. It diminishes the ROI on time invested. I realize for those coming out to play one event, it doesn’t really matter. But for those at the series for a long time, it makes it an even bigger grind.

I mean, just think of your result. You played ~24 hours of poker, not including breaks, finished top 2.5% and got 5x your buyin, assuming you were on 1 bullet.

I just wonder if events like this need to be “bigger and better”? Would anyone really complain if it were a solid three day event instead of a marathon 5 day event?

I understand the optics of having bigger fields, but I wonder if this is actually a good business decision for the WSOP in terms of profitability. The longer the event, the more it costs. And the more starting days you have, the more people there will be playing elsewhere on some of them, or not playing at all.

Anyone agree with the following? I think some tournaments have way too many days. Like I want to play the monster stack- it’s a what 4-5 day tourny? Why not knock off a day.

Idk I’ve played some solid $400 tournies with big fields that finished in 2 days and the structure improved a lot on day 2. Idk I like the structure etc but idk why they can’t make a tourny that finishes in 3 days. Why not just extend day 1 and 2 and maybe make the dinner break not super long. 20 min breaks and a 75 min dinner break just seems like overkill if you ask me.

Example- I think the Venetian deep stack events with best structures are ideal. You have 2-3 starting days and finish on day 2 even though the structure is amazing. Idk I’m in vegas to fire many bullets and being stuck in a tournament where I might not final table is lols. Finish 27 for some buyins- but wasted a day or two of not firing other tournaments. Maybe I’m crazy but I would rather they start structure off kinda quicker and then progress is through the days. Maybe make day 1 40min levels, day 2 hours, day 3+ 80-90 min levels? Idk I’m more fan of having long levels when tourny matters and just get rid of your dead money early when levels are shorter

60 minute levels are part of what makes the Monster Stack unique compared with your typical garden variety Wynn or Venetian $1k.

I like that aspect of the tournament, but I don't like the third starting flight. It turns an already huge/slow event into an even bigger/slower one.

I was going to play the Milly Maker this year, but with the changes to the schedule, I've decided to skip the huge weekend lotteries.

With top-heavy payouts, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense to fight through a 15,000 person field.

The prospect of a good return on your investment is slim.

Monster and Milly have consistently had fields of 7-8K. You think a third day 1 flight will double the total field?

Absolutely agree with all of this, though I will still play the MM since it isn't quite as crazy as the MS.

Boosting these fields artificially with extra flights will entice those who only care about what first place is. But I think players, even recs, are a lot more savvy nowadays than they were 10-15 years ago. Players have played a lot of events over the years and I think they recognize that super top heavy prizepolols and dragged-out structures are a painful experience to the vast majority of participants, whether you are a rec or play for profit.

To me, the perfect tournament structure is somewhere in the range of 40K chips, 40 min blinds (without skipping levels, of course). You get plenty of play early and throughout day 1 where most of the field participates. And the thing doesn't drag on forever. I understand why some prefer 60 min blinds, but it just gets to be a slog. And yes, all sorts of tournaments do exist and there are options. I just wish the WSOP would revisit their structures. I don't mean gut them so they are turbos (people often suggest that speeding up an event automatically turns it into a turbo). I mean providing a good structure that doesn't require dedicating multiple days to maybe eek out a tiny profit.

And if I had my way, the payout structures would reflect meaningful milestones with meaningful sums. Cashing a tournament is hard to do. It should come with a meaningful reward, like at least 3x, if not as high as 5x in these mega-field re-entry events. Making a final table is also a big milestone, so 9th place should be significantly more than 10th place. And yes, winning an event should come with a significant prize. But you don't have to give 10% of such a massive prizepool to one luckbox. Poker is a game of skill, but winning any individual tournament is almost entirely luck.

All of this can be achieved by a less top-heavy prizepool and a more linear approach between min-cash and final table. I think these sorts of changes would make playing these events significantly more enjoyable, and economical for the vast majority of players. And that, in turn, would be good for the poker economy.

Milly got 10.4k entries last year, so I think they can get close to 15k with another starting flight.

https://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/event.p...

12-15k is my guess for Milly Maker and Monster Stack.

Double? Are you bad at Math? If you add 50% more day 1's you get 50% more entries, not 100%. Though I don't think they'll get even 50% more, probably closer to 35% more.

Dogface estimated 15K this year which is double the historic fields of around 7500. Are you bad at math?

I mean I agree with dogface here but I feel a structure can be great without 1hr levels with a ton of meaningless play early (kinda). The 3rd day is a big deal to me and kinda annoying but hey more players = more fun players I guess.

I guess my big thing is- i wish they could say knock a 4 day tourny down to a 3 day tourny and just have longer days. Goofy as it is- even if they let you have a 2-3 hour night break on a day 3 when most of field is gone to maybe extend the day would be cool. Maybe have play 10-6pm, break 6-9 for dinner/ rest and then continue to 2-3 am and then have a final table or final 2-3 tables on final day and maybe a noon restart.

Monster stack does have a great structure and I’m a fan of better structures obviously. I guess I just think what Venetian runs is an insane structure and a tad quicker so one can play more tournies when in vegas.

I like Venetian for multi-days, but keep in mind they aren't navigating fields with 5-10k players.

Logistical challenges of the WSOP are unique since the field sizes are uniquely massive.

Wynn WPT stuff was huge this December and was also very slow, likely for similar reasons.

There's no quick way to resolve a tournament with 10k entries unless you want to embrace a turbo type of format.

WPT prime Championship didn’t need to go to 60 minute levels on day 2. It caused all sorts of logistical issues, especially with how big the day 2 field was and how flat the payouts were.

I am not completely opposed to lengthening levels as the tourney goes on. But 1 hour should really be limited to like 1% of the field at most.

The 3-day multi-flight weekends are certainly going to juice the fields, but they also may help dilute each day a bit and avoid the massive lines/late reg backups (thinking especially with the Colossus).

Yes many are going to fire all three days now but a lot of recs are only planning on one bullet/one day and now they are spread out over 3 days instead of 2.

For the MS and Milly, Day 2 falling on a Monday instead of a Sunday might be a detractor for some people thinking about playing them.

Agreed. Since they started paying out 15% of the field the min cashes have become awful.

I prefer longer levels. Especially when we start with few chips like the WSOP Senior and Super Senior events where you start with 20,000 chips but have 1 hour levels.

The best way to increase min cashes is to reduce the % of players who cash. 15% is ridiculously high in my opinion. I'm used to 12% usually in the US and sometimes 10%. In Prague at Rebuy Stars it was 10% of initial buy ins and 5% of rebuys so it ended up usually at about 8%. Which meant the min cashes were very high.

15% is probably a bit high. It was introduced, I think, in order to allow events to get in the money day 1. This is a good thing. And perhaps that becomes difficult with 12.5% and hour long levels. Another reason why day 1 doesn’t have to be that slow.

I agree that 20k chips is too little in modern poker, but I’m not sure anything above 40k is at all necessary. Even 30k is probably fine as long as levels aren’t skipped.

It’s not easy to create a perfect structure since there are always competing interests. But I think structures can remain good as far as depth is concerned but still be better from a playability and ROI on time invested standpoint. Who really wants to put in 16 hours of poker and get nothing for it? Poker tournaments are always going to be a lottery to some degree, but it doesn’t have to be as big a lottery as it is now. And really, outside of the minuscule number of players who actually win these things, who would complain if they were structured to benefit those who cash in a more meaningful way?

30K starting chips and 40 minute levels day 1 might be the sweet spot. If you notice the $5K Senior championship they amped it to 50,000 starting stack and 40 / 60 min levels. BIG question is what will the level structures be for the events. As I recall it used to be that the money bubble was broken level 12 or 13 in the Hour events and that has basically slipped back a level to 13-14 with the larger fields. Starting chips aren't as impactful as the level structure advance. Realize I started playing the WSOP in a the Chip for a $1 entry fee days. $1500 fee got you 1,500 chips but you also started out at $25/$25 blinds unheard of in modern play. Personally, I have no issue with the Mini cash at 15% of the field (seems like that began to change +5 years ago now up from 12%) I would prefer (as has been mentioned above by others) they strip some money out of the often top heavy 1 thru 3 positions. WSOP marketing likes to highlight BIG money winners while it actually is better for the health of the game to spread it out a bit more. It takes a lot of SKILL (and some luck) to make a final table....... but 1- 3 is more LUCK than skill IMO.

BBA smoothes out the structures a lot.

That along with 11-12% field min cash goes a long way to a better tournament experience.

Making the money and winning half your buyin does not add up to the 12+ hours of play. A few more hours would get you 2x or better with a lower % field min cash.

And it's reasonably straightforward to setup a geometric payout model.

Are you using this in a Game Theory context ? Example if you have the time.

It's simply the geometric growth over N places, with p1 the min cash and pn the winners cash. Use Excel solver to determine either min cash or winner's cash by setting the constraint = sum of projected payouts match the prize pool.

Example: assume 5 places paid, with winner getting $5,000. Prize pool is $8,883, so min cash is solved at $200.

Growth is equal for each place. Taking log(5000) - log(200) and dividing that by 4, each place is then paid as follows:

5th: $200
4th: $447
3rd: $1,000
2nd: $2,236
1st: $5,000

Prise pool: $8,883

Of course big events do not pay out in small increments due to players gaming the system, so the solver would need to take that into consideration (e.g. 450-485 pays $800, 414-449 pays $900, etc).

For single day, or at least continuous events (no bag-up), this sort of formula makes sense. But I’m not sure it does for multi-day events, especially those of the large field variety we see at the WSOP. I feel like a formula which is based on the logistical bubbles of making the next day would be better. Significantly fewer pay jumps, but more meaningful ones. At least till the final table, or the last day of the event, whichever comes first.

I’m still brainstorming it a bit, but maybe I’ll have more details to share at some point.