Israel/Palestine thread

Oh i just engage for others , maybe people didn't know how compromised the italian woman was for example

Israelis advertise their atrocities

In this thread dunyain says let’s not give Palestinians food to keep them from dying because they may not like us

Dunyain

One side is murdering and starving a population and has killed 30x the number as the other side

One side is trying to survive and isn’t succeeding. They kill 3% or less of the other side

Do you accept this baseline , yes or no

Sure.

But it is also apparent Palestinian culture and the cynical support of this culture by much of the Muslim world* and progressive left is going to guarantee atrocities continue indefinitely.

In theory one would think the goal should be to move in a positive direction. But I dont see anything coming out of the UN working towards this.

*At the state level many Muslim state actors are starting to realize the current incentive structures are perverse and dont align with anyones interests, except Iran and their proxies. But it is difficult, because you have to balance trying to move things forward with the built in antisemitism of their populations which makes it hard to do anything which is perceived as helping Israel.

This is because you have comprehension issues. The war will continue because the left, like Biden, wants to support Israel.

The reason you don’t see anything related to a positive direction is because you don’t understand what a positive direction from the UN actually is

If you cared about human lives more than anything else, you would see less deaths as a positive direction.

But you don’t.

I don't think you're allowed to say here that people don't care about human lives.

That’s fine. I didn’t say that.

I said but you don’t. We were discussing what they would do IF they cared about human lives MORE than anything else.

Dunyain do you care about human lives more than anything else?

Ok just be careful because that sort of rhetoric can get you a lengthy ban.

No one cares about human lives more than "anything else" otherwise they would all be missionaries somewhere and have politics that imply something like close to 100% of gdp in healthcare after food and the like is managed.

And afaik no1 does.

It is hard having discussions with you, because of your complete disregard for history and context, and your narrow white vs brown oppressor vs oppressed worldview.

I dont really accept a lot of your framing as it doesn't align with reality in any way. If the Palestinians were just "trying to survive", step one would be to give back the hostages, declare Hamas illegitimate, forsake armed resistance, and seriously come to the peace bargaining table for the first time in 80 years.

The Palestinians through their words and actions are still actively trying to outright win the same war for 80 years and conquer Israel. It is just going extremely poorly, but they seem mostly undaunted by this.

I dont see some sort of equilibrium where the war continues indefinitely but Israel kills less Palestinians and allows more Israelis to die as a satisfactory endpoint. You clearly do, so we will have to agree to disagree.

No, but you dont either. I am not really interested in vacuous, empty moralizing. And even if I did care about human lives more than anything else, I would still say reforming Palestinian culture would be the optimal way to improve their lives.

I really dont see how anyone could sincerely say they care about Palestinian lives, and think a (unilateral Israeli) "ceasefire" and going back to the status quo is in their best interests in any way. I dont think most people care about Palestinian lives at all, they just care about the Palestinian cause, which is 2 very different things.

Likewise part of your issue here is failing to recognize that the extremism in the Islamic world is something that has been nurtured by the West/Israel for their own purposes-- in order to have their war on terror, to fight their war with the Shia, and so that Israel never has a viable partner for peace in Palestine. You can't just put all of the blame on Muslims for the position they're in.

I dont think Israel agrees with you that allowing Iranian proxies to surround them and attack them indefinitely will "save more Israeli lives." You are kind of missing the whole part where Hamas/Gaza is one of many Iranian proxies actively attacking Israel. It seems Israel wants to actually secure the south/Gaza, and then the next logical step is to try to neutralize Hezbollah in the north.

Maybe you are right and going back to an indefinte low intensity war on the southern border where they dont even try to win is actually in Israel's best interests. But it isn't clearly obvious this is the case, as you declare.

Its not that I fail to realize, it is just that I dont think it actually changes anything.

Playing the blame game doesn't move anything forward. Determining who is historically at fault for how things ended up the way they are isn't even particularly relevant to my arguments.

Even if the US/Israel was 100% at fault for how Palestinian society is so radicalized, Palestinian society needing to reform would still be just as necessary for any positive developments.

If someone has a different idea of how to go about this, then that is fine. But decades of not even acknowledging this reality is a big reason for how we ended up where we are IMO.

pfffft

*hides*

But the world only cries for the end of "Zionism". There's no movement calling Islamic countries anything close to what we're calling Zionists. And you spend no time of your day trying to dismantle or discredit Islamic countries.

So at some point the Jews look at that and say "what gives?"

I think most sensible people acknowledge that American (and British before them) imperialism in this part of the world is a giant part of how we got where we are. But ok, we acknowledge that, now what is next?

I don't think demanding Israel unilaterally take actions it deems negative towards its own security while offering zero incentive for it to do so, and then being outraged and shocked when they decline to do so, is particularly productive.

The 2 state process is the hot button topic right now, and one we should all be spending more time on.

The premise has either been front loading the requirements for 2 states, or backloading it and giving them the state before anything is needed to prove it can be done. The latter is an utter waste of money and lives, and most of the Israeli political spectrum understands this.

The only workable way for Palestinians to get a state is this: they have to be ok with the Israeli state, the Jews right to living in peace in Israel, and that "from the River to the Sea" is a fantasy that will never be true. If that was actually their reality, they would have their state tremendously fast, and it would be nearly impossible for Israel to deny them that.

But sadly, this is not the reality. The world has emboldened "from the River to the Sea". No matter what happens in this war, Hamas will maintain the ability to destabilize whatever plans there are to move past this gridlock. And that means there's no way to guarantee that the next state wouldn't be shelled into the stone ages again after the next October 7th happens (which has been promised, and we believe them).

In the Hamas tunnels, they're finding the quarters of the leadership. And these guys are reading literature on Nazi style eradication of the Jews as their night reading. As long as that's who you are negotiating 2 state with, it'll never happen. Doesn't matter if Biden and Blinken pound the table for it, it's not going to work.

Accept the Jews right to live in their homeland. Move past the River to the Sea. And then, the path to 2 states will emerge. I see no way of it before that crucial moment.

Hamas is not an extremist Islamic group and has generally been opposed to those USA backed factions. likewise, its supporters in Lebanon, Iran, Yemen have been opposed to them as well.

Hamas did fight against the Syrians for awhile before changing back. not sure what that was all about nor if it has anything to do with the Gazans.

also, Dun's portrayal of Gazan society as fundamentally Islam is incorrect as well. there are plenty of secular and leftis and groups that are fighting alongside Hamas.

PFLP for one has been puting out videos of resistance fighting since this genocide started.

Well we called some of them "axis of evil" , others called some of them "shitholes", and plenty of people still believe both definitions are true today.

So ye maybe the "movement" isn't as organized as the pro hamas one sure, but i suggest you check Indian social media if you want some spicy take on what many of them think about muslim countries, especially their neighboring ones

Sounds like some Sunni/Shia stuff there and apparently most of Palestine is Sunni. And since Iran supports Hamas I'd guess they threatened to pull their support unless they changed their tune vis-a-vis Syria.

Or another possibility is that they could have been uncomfortable fighting the same people Israel wanted to fight.

Ultimately though I think you have some radical factions on both sides of the Sunni/Shia divide, although for sure the West is sponsoring and supportive of the Sunnis because of the Saudis.

I suggest you use the "mostly peaceful" descriptor for Hamas which would make the irony funnier.

This was in 2019

/

A senior Hamas official has urged members of the Palestinian diaspora to kill Jews around the world.

Fathi Hammad, a member of Hamas’s politburo who is considered a hard-liner and is known for his fiery rhetoric, made the statement in a speech at a protest in the border region between the Gaza Strip and Israel on Friday.

“Our patience has run out. We are on the verge of exploding. If this siege is not undone, we will explode in the face of our enemies, with God’s permission and glory. The explosion is not only going to be in Gaza but also in the [West] Bank and abroad, if God wills,” Hammad said, referring to significant Israeli restrictions on the movement of people and goods between Israel and Gaza.

“But our brothers [in the diaspora] are still preparing. They are trying to prepare. They are warming up. A long time has passed with them warming up. All of you 7 million Palestinians abroad, enough of the warming up. You have Jews everywhere and we must attack every Jew on the globe by way of slaughter and killing, if God permits. Enough of the warming up,” he added.

/

That guy does not speak for Hamas and I could trot out just as many people who specify the fight is with the occupying Zionists and not Jews as a whole. In fact, that is the official Hamas position.