Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Truth is scary
In other news, in Khan Younis large groups of Hamas fighters staged in 2 of the main hospitals surrendered en masse. By all accounts, Sinwar has gone completely underground, there is no leadership, morale is at rock bottom, and Hamas in on the verge of complete collapse.
You can actually sense the frantic energy and concern coming from the pro Hamas crowd over an impeding IDF Rafah offensive, Hamas's last stronghold. In their current leaderless, low-morale state, Hamas would likely immediately collapse in Rafah if Israel went in; which they may never recover from.
Sensing this, the pro-Hamas left and Muslim world is very concerned over an impending Rafah offensive, and going all out to put diplomatic pressure to stop Israel so Hamas can survive and keep Israeli and American hostages for leverage.
vic, any comment on how you were duped into spreading antisemitic conspiracy theories about mass graves just prior to your latest banning
In other news, in Khan Younis large groups of Hamas fighters staged in 2 of the main hospitals surrendered en masse. By all accounts, Sinwar has gone completely underground, there is no leadership, morale is at rock bottom, and Hamas in on the verge of complete collapse.
You can actually sense the frantic energy and concern coming from the pro Hamas crowd over an impeding IDF Rafah offensive, Hamas's last stronghold. In their current leade
What are they waiting for, why aren't troops in rafah already?
I would guess it is because the US is trying to orchestrate a cease fire, and has told Israel to give it time. They just drafted something to the UN.
Basically Israel would stop the war effort without entering Rafah and allow unlimited aid in exchange for the hostages.
I am pessimistic Hamas is going to do this. For one, I am not sure they even have that much control over their own militants to organize such an operation. Also, I am guessing a lot of the hostages are dead and/or tortured/raped; and Hamas wishes to obfuscate this as long as possible.
People are saying that because the draft uses the term "ceasefire" for the first time, this indicates the US is starting to turn on Israel. At the same time, by demanding the return of hostages for a ceasefire, this pretty much ensures it is not happening, as Hamas has shown zero interest in returning remaining hostages, IMO for the reasons specified above.
I mean, I could be wrong and Hamas agrees to release the hostages in exchange for ceasefire and unlimited aid to the Palestinian people; and they are returned mostly alive, healthy and treated relatively well (given the circumstances). But I am extremely pessimistic this is how things will play out.
There is also some domestic politics stuff. Muslim Arabs here are generally pro Hamas, and vocally threatening to not vote for Biden if he doesn't stop Hamas from being destroyed. And in the swing state Michigan specifically they are a big enough voting bloc this could be problematic for Biden, and actually influence policy.
vic, any comment on how you were duped into spreading antisemitic conspiracy theories about mass graves just prior to your latest banning
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/1/...
plenty of videos on twitter too
There is also some domestic politics stuff. Muslim Arabs here are generally pro Hamas, and vocally threatening to not vote for Biden if he doesn't stop Hamas from being destroyed. And in the swing state Michigan specifically they are a big enough voting bloc this could be problematic for Biden, and actually influence policy.
Rashida Tlaib made some news today, calling for Michiganders to not vote for Biden in their primary and she was the only house rep to vote against a resolution condemning Hamas.
I mean, I could be wrong and Hamas agrees to release the hostages in exchange for ceasefire and unlimited aid to the Palestinian people; and they are returned mostly alive, healthy and treated relatively well (given the circumstances). But I am extremely pessimistic this is how things will play out.
bruv, they already offered this. Biden called it "over the top." and I mean, we can see what Israel's plan has been and it seems their priority is to expel the Gazans and they are quite willing to sacrifice the hostages.
remember when Bibi said they were going to "trim the population" to a minimum?
bruv, they already offered this. Biden called it "over the top." and I mean, we can see what Israel's plan has been and it seems their priority is to expel the Gazans and they are quite willing to sacrifice the hostages.
remember when Bibi said they were going to "trim the population" to a minimum?
Victor. None of this is true at all and no one serious even entertains your version of reality. Hamas propaganda doesn't even pretend they offered a ceasefire under anything close to these terms, as it is too unbelievable.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-eas....
hell they offered to release all the hostages shortly after Oct 7.
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/...
The PLO did that at Oslo back in 1993 when Hamas was only a few years old. No state came. Instead, more settlers. The Palestinians have no negotiating partner.
I'm sorry Bill, but the historical record shows that the PLO turned down the best 2 state offer there has ever been, one that would have been the foundation for future cooperation and growth. Imagine Gazan lives TODAY if they had accepted that back then?
On this one, you don't get to firehose of lies sadly. The Israeli left gave them a deal that today most of the world would dream of seeing back on offer.
And then they didn't just do that. They refused AGAIN later on.
I'm sorry Bill, but the historical record shows that the PLO turned down the best 2 state offer there has ever been, one that would have been the foundation for future cooperation and growth. Imagine Gazan lives TODAY if they had accepted that back then?
On this one, you don't get to firehose of lies sadly. The Israeli left gave them a deal that today most of the world would dream of seeing back on offer.
you are talking about the deal where Rabin called it "something less than a state"? right?
the deal that wasnt even a state, but was so disgusting to the Israelis that they assassinated the guy who brokered it even tho the guy was like "cmon, I was just kidding, I had my fingers crossed".
The plo was willing to accept offers until rabin got murdered
The arafat realized he would get murdered if he compromised and all bets were off
Victor. None of this is true at all and no one serious even entertains your version of reality. Hamas propaganda doesn't even pretend they offered a ceasefire under anything close to these terms, as it is too unbelievable.
Since Oct 7th, Hamas is completely reinvigorated by the idea of playing for the whole thing. Even if they do that in stages, it's as front and centre as it ever was.
It's clear in all their media releases. It's clear in their actions. The more Columbia students chant "from the River to the Sea" the more it reinforces the 100 year plan that will go long after this group of Hamas leaders is gone. And support for Hamas is tremendously high in both Gaza and the West Bank, which puts the whole political situation in one heck of a bind.
Israel's position now is that the day after solution has to come from the Arab nations (funded, managed). They have to deradicalize Palestinians, because they're the only ones who can. And then the plan has to be supported by the USA. And finally accepted by Israel. It's going to take all those parts.
But nobody in Israel is negotiating a state run by Hamas. That's suicide, idiotic, and honestly really makes it so that the lives lost on both sides were for nothing. Nobody is going to play politics with an internationally recognized terrorist group. Full stop.
you are talking about the deal where Rabin called it "something less than a state"? right?
the deal that wasnt even a state, but was so disgusting to the Israelis that they assassinated the guy who brokered it even tho the guy was like "cmon, I was just kidding, I had my fingers crossed".
There were 2 different offers where they did get a state Victor. The firehose of lies can't change that.
Victor, where is the mass grave story from the other day? Did you find it?
There were 2 different offers where they did get a state Victor. The firehose of lies can't change that.
Victor, where is the mass grave story from the other day? Did you find it?
scroll up.
There were 2 different offers where they did get a state Victor. The firehose of lies can't change that.
Victor, where is the mass grave story from the other day? Did you find it?
I post links to facts and statements. so, lets see where these 2 offers came from? bc it sure doesnt look like Rabin was willing to do it according to Jewish sources.
And just so we have the list before Victor turns on his firehose, this is what Arafat turned down because he wanted the full right of return:
-a demilitarised Palestinian state (92% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip)
-dismantling most of the settlements and the concentration of most of the settlers inside the 8% of the West Bank
-the establishment of the Palestinian capital in east Jerusalem
-Palestinian sovereignty over half the old City of Jerusalem (Muslim & Christian quarters) and custodianship, though not sovereignty, over the Temple Mount
-a massive aid programme to facilitate the refugees' rehabilitation (from international groups)
But the firehose says that's not a state. Honestly imagine they take that? And imagine the few posters who constantly pick at that. Guys it will NEVER BE THAT GOOD again. You understand that right? Clinton was right when he cried at the lunacy of turning that down. That was a death sentence.
bruv, as you like to say, literally no major news outlet here or in Europe picked it up. This after all the news sources have made it very clear they would love nothing more than to expose exactly that kind of story (see the hospital etc). You got played by Twitter. And I think at some level you know this.
I'd love to see Bibi testify. Like he has in the past, but a tad different for having killed them all this time. Irregardless, he'd crush the opportunity to defend Israel.
bruv, as you like to say, literally no major news outlet here or in Europe picked it up. This after all the news sources have made it very clear they would love nothing more than to expose exactly that kind of story (see the hospital etc). You got played by Twitter. And I think at some level you know this.
the mainstream Western press does not report on a lot of this stuff. doesnt mean it didnt happen.
also, the Western press is very pro-Israel and will do everything it can to avoid reporting on that type of story. and when it becomes unavoidable they do their best to downplay Israel's actions.
how many times have "explosions in Gaza killed and wounded people" as if they are things that just happen and its not a deliberate act.
And just so we have the list before Victor turns on his firehose, this is what Arafat turned down because he wanted the full right of return:
-a demilitarised Palestinian state (92% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip)
-dismantling most of the settlements and the concentration of most of the settlers inside the 8% of the West Bank
-the establishment of the Palestinian capital in east Jerusalem
-Palestinian sovereignty over half the old
post the link buddy
the mainstream Western press does not report on a lot of this stuff. doesnt mean it didnt happen.
also, the Western press is very pro-Israel and will do everything it can to avoid reporting on that type of story. and when it becomes unavoidable they do their best to downplay Israel's actions.
how many times have "explosions in Gaza killed and wounded people" as if they are things that just happen and its not a deliberate act.
Victor, if you believe that every single Western news source just sat it out on a mass grave story in Israel, I guess I just feel bad/sorry for you.
