Israel/Palestine thread

Also

If Israel "governs gaza" at all it will be "omg the occupying power is trying to govern gaza omg its a genocide omg they want to take over gaza"

There's enough bad pr. Israel can't be the sole rulers of gaza. There needs to be a coalition that includes friendly Arab nations

You act like Hamas is not the government of The Gazan people and Israel should help the people that both elected and support Hamas

And then say it is their legal and moral obligation?

Wow

Usa does it in all her wars

Iraq. Afghan. Syria.

Yonks ago on another thread you claimed the US was engaging in "genocide against African Americans" so you're the last person to be criticising anyone's logic. Many of your posts don't even make a lick of sense.

I just don't think the arab world would want israel to be the occupying power during the rebuild

You're engaging with the guy who thinks israelis are white and Palestinians are brown and this is a war where a white oppressing power is hating on oppressed brown people. Who cares what somebody like that thinks about anyone's logic

I am not saying there isn't some moral case it should happen. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't.

I am pointing out there is really no practical way this could work. Israel is too small and doesn't have that kind of man power. Just a reminder, China and the US both have multiple cities with more people than the entire nation of Israel. I live in one of them. You probably have too at some point.

Even if it did have the manpower the Palestinian people would object (most likely violently) to anything more than Israel just writing the checks. Where is there any indication the Palestinians (or the rest of the Arab/Muslim world for that matter) would want or allow Israel to be involved in a hypothetical rebuild in any way?

Those offers were not for states. Israel wasn't withdrawing from Area C, therefore the occupation would continue. The WB would remain divided into 165 cantons, with checkpoints in between.

Do you really think there was a point the PLO would have accepted any reasonable 2 state solution? Did they ever propose anything themselves? That is kind of how this works. If you actually want something to happen, you propose something yourself on terms you find acceptable.

It seems the historical consensus is they never had any intention of doing so. It seems every US President who tried to work with them came to this conclusion too.

Documentary on him mentioned in your link

At the very least they never accepted to lose Jerusalem

This is a poker site, so the concept of "results oriented" isn't lost on me. But in history we can look at bad decisions (Hitler attacking Russia, Europe letting Hitler arm up as freely as they did, Napoleon venturing into Russia in the winter), and we can spot a bad decision when we see one.

The Palestinian people got to a fork in the road with those offers. In one direction down that road is a forever war. Because the "Great Palestinian Return" can only be a forever war. The PLO and Hamas model is built off the Algerian FLN/NLF model. They borrowed pretty much the whole playbook after seeing Algeria send the French home. The one massive miscalculation they made is that unlike the French, the Jews have nowhere else to go. They cannot leave.

So you stare down this fork, one side is forever terrorism, forever refugees, forever war. And although nobody could predict an Oct 7th exactly, we could predict the rest. We could predict right wing Israeli governments coming in when the left failed so miserably at making progress on 2 state and a reduction in the violence against Jews. We could predict border fences, walls, deteriorating conditions for civilians. Hostages, murder, misery...THAT is all the forever war has in it. And I'm telling you right now that's all it will ever have. Both sides will be miserable, the Palestinians more so.

The other direction in the fork in the road was acceptance that Israel is here. That the Jews also have a story. That the UN vote will not undo, and that unlike the French, the Jews have no France they're going back to. And when a good offer is presented, you avoid the forever war and you give your people a chance at life over death. At jobs over suicide bombs. At good educations. That means sitting at the table, making counters. It means taking the best offer you can get, and proving with peace that more is fair in time. That's obviously a place where both sides could have built from.

I'm sorry, but they chose a forever war (and still chose it Oct 7th), and it takes a significant amount of intellectual dishonesty to think otherwise.

A lot of the palestinian strategy was predicated on the west ending up favouring them over israel. That might have been a bad mistake in hindsight but it's a less obvious one than others you listed.

10 7 was clearly not a strategic move in the sense of palestinian interests. But that's what happens if your leaders are acting on behalf of another country (Iran).

I am not sure palestinians have a way to get back to leaders who try to do palestinian self interest.

I actually disagree with you. It was not in their immediate interests. But I think if you play out Sinwar's logic (and it's pretty special), add another 100 years to this (as he is), and he moves the ball forward. Remember now he's just trying to get past the Boomers (who largely support Israel) and hand the football off to the next generation. Now when you'll look at world leaders in THAT cohort, I think you'll see a different playing field.

That's all Sinwar wants. For the kids of Columbia to become the AOC's of tomorrow. Once Israel has been an "apartheid state" for 100 years, it gets awful hard to rebrand.

you mean the Columbia kids who got sprayed with chemical weapons by IDF soldiers?

It seems a lot of the "strategy" is corrupt leaders getting very wealthy stealing International aid, and having zero incentive to actually change this dynamic.

And the Palestinian people being mostly ok with it for ignorant tribal/racist/religious reasons.

Mets, Dunyain: I've stated repeatedly that Israel should not be occupying Gaza when rebuilding occurs and they do not want to anyways. I am talking specifically about this very important moment in time.

By not being the ones to administer aid, and blocking all outside sources of aid, by default it will be Hamas who takes this role. This is against Israel's interests.

why would Israel provide aid when they have explicitly stated that they are going to block food water and electricity? why would they provide aid when they have explicitly stated they are going to "thin the population to a minimum? why would they provide aid when they routinely bomb and snipe aid trucks, people waiting for those trucks, and people leaving those trucks?

I am not sure what more evidence you need to finally realize that the point of this "war" is to murder large parts of the civilian population.

Yes, it is Israel's responsibility to provide food and shelter for the million+ refugees it is keeping penned in Rafah.

in b4 "wHy DoEsNt EgYpT hElP?1??"

Obviously aid is getting in. There are millions of people that have been completely dependent on it for months (decades really). What is your understanding of the mechanics of the current aid situation where Israel is being deficient?

Saying Israel is blocking all outside sources of aid doesn't seem accurate. If it was, how are the 2 million people in Gaza surviving for months? I mean, I see pictures of Ukranian POWs who spent a couple months in Russian detention and they are literally skin and bones. Clearly they weren't getting food. All the pictures coming out of Gaza after months of "Israel blocking all aid" and literally no one looks anything close to this. A lot of the military aged men are obese. What are we even talking about here?

This is what you are arguing against.

bruv the population is starving. even the mainstream western press is reporting it.

I am not arguing against it. I have no idea what you are mechanically proposing. Do you propose the UN drop off their aid trucks off in Israel, and Israel soldiers hand deliver everything? Is this even logistically. possible? How many troops would Israel need to have in Gaza to do this?

Does anyone on either side even want it to go this way?

I get that part. Wars really suck. Hamas should definitely give back the hostages and stop stealing so much aid to ameliorate this.

I dont really have any clue what BGP is envisioning for how things should mechanically go. That is what I am trying to understand.