Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Israeli report says Hamas sexual violence 'systematic and intentional'
4 hours ago
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By David Gritten
BBC News
EPA An Israeli security officer inspects the scene of the 7 October attack by Hamas gunmen on the Nova music festival in Reim, Israel (17 October 2023)EPA
The report's authors found "identical patterns of action repeated in each of the attack zones", including the Nova festival
The Association of Rape Crisis Centers in Israel says it has gathered evidence Hamas gunmen "systematically and intentionally" committed sexual crimes during the 7 October attacks.
A report by the umbrella organisation describes "identical patterns" of sexual violence at multiple locations.
These allegedly included violent rapes of women conducted "collectively" or "in front of an audience".
Hamas has denied its gunmen sexually assaulted women during the attacks.
On 7 October, hundreds from the Palestinian armed group infiltrated southern Israel, where they killed about 1,200 people and took 253 others hostage.
Israel responded by launching a military campaign in Gaza, during which 29,300 people have been killed, according to the Hamas-run health ministry.
Warning: Contains graphic descriptions of rape and sexual violence
Reports of sexual violence carried out by Hamas - which is proscribed as a terrorist organisation by Israel, the UK and others - began to emerge soon after 7 October and have accumulated steadily ever since.
A senior Israeli police officer told British MPs last month there was "clear evidence" - collected from forensic investigations as well as from hundreds of statements by witnesses and first responders - that sexual crimes had been committed on a scale large enough to define it as a crime against humanity.
The BBC has also seen and heard evidence of rape, sexual violence and mutilation of women.
The report by the Association of Rape Crisis Centers in Israel (ACCRI) brings together much of what has been reported, as well as other information that it says it has received directly from professionals and confidential calls.
It found that the 7 October attacks included "brutal acts of violent rape, often involving threats with weapons, specifically directed towards injured women".
"Many rape incidents occurred collectively, with collaboration among the perpetrating terrorists," the report says. "In some cases, rape was conducted in front of an audience, such as partners, family, or friends, to increase the pain and humiliation for all present."
"Some Hamas members pursued victims who escaped the massacre, dragging them by their hair with screams. The majority of victims were subsequently killed during or after the sexual assault."
It also cites various sources as indicating that many victims' bodies were "found mutilated and bound, with sexual organs brutally attacked, and in some cases, weapons were inserted into them".
The report concludes that there is "a clear picture of identical patterns of action repeated in each of the attack zones" - the Nova festival, homes in kibbutzim and villages near the Gaza border, and Israeli military bases.
Several Nova festival survivors reported cases of gang rapes, "where women were abused and handled between multiple terrorists who beat, injured, and ultimately killed them", it says.
First responders and volunteer body collectors who went to border communities witnessed signs of sexual violence on women and girls, as did those who identified the bodies of female soldiers killed at bases.
The report also warns that information from released hostages suggests abuse has continued in captivity - an allegation that Hamas has denied.
The BBC's Paul Adams in Jerusalem says this is something Israeli officials are extremely reluctant to talk about openly, out of respect for anxious family members. But they do say that one reason Hamas is still holding female hostages is that does not want their stories to be told.
Asked about these reports at a recent briefing, a senior Israeli official declined to give details, saying simply: "Believe me. We know."
The ACCRI says it has submitted its findings to the UN Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict, Pramila Patten, who is carrying out a similar investigation and visited Israel last month.
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If Francesca Albanese isn't the author, victor won't believe it
It's already been debunked by a Jewish women. But I guess not a real Jew amirite.
Pointless, this isn't Good Will Hunting. You don't get this GOTCHA moment where you say DO YOU LIKE APPLES on this.
Because as I've explained, there's no point to your question in the context of today's discussion. You just want to hear someone say what you already know. And the answer to that just doesn't matter with regards to Israeli trauma. And it never will.
There is no competition for pain.
DO YOU LIKE MORALITY?
Your actions say no
You all look so impressive, anyone of you coukd be King of Pain
I cant help but feel bad for the bulldozer operators and even the tank crews that get blasted in Gaza. but seeing the snipers get taken out is quite satisfying admittedly. these murderers who have certainly killed and maimed tons of innocent Gazans just arrogantly set up in the most obv fashion and then get blasted away when they least expect it.
So let me see if I get where we are at.
Help in rafah is actually arriving fairly regularly (1.7m ppl there approx, 85%)
Help in the north is blocked since at least 3 weeks ago (300k people left there approx, 15%).
Israel is stalling because the US is pushing harder than it looks like from the outside, to avoid carnage in rafah (bombing and entering would kill 5k+ civilians, and disrupt aid for unknown periods of time).
Israel doesn't seem to know exactly enough where the hostages are currently.
Tunnel system in southern Gaza still fairly operational.
Hamas is weak but starting to regroup, Iran help reaches them a tad.
So the anti Israel are actually winning currently (after months of setback) because Hamas has a chance to become a threat again soon.
And we pro Israel should hope they go allin on rafah as there is no other way to have a chance to decapitate Hamas once and for all.
Am I getting the current scenario correctly?
50k Palestinians dead with no end in sight.
You know, the most important metric , human life
So let me see if I get where we are at.
Help in rafah is actually arriving fairly regularly (1.7m ppl there approx, 85%)
Help in the north is blocked since at least 3 weeks ago (300k people left there approx, 15%).
Israel is stalling because the US is pushing harder than it looks like from the outside, to avoid carnage in rafah (bombing and entering would kill 5k+ civilians, and disrupt aid for unknown periods of time).
Israel doesn't seem to
nah. Israel is not trying to find hostages and not even going after Hamas. they are just attacking civilians and hoping to make life so miserable and hopeless that the population leaves.
50k Palestinians dead with no end in sight.
You know, the most important metric , human life
30k, of which 10k Hamas (and an unknown amount of the 20k, Hamas sympathizers). Very low ratio of innocents to enemies killed, one of the lowest in war history.
You know the most important metric, enemies defeated. Minimizing civilian loss of life.
Electric eyes are everywhere. See that Jihadi
Spoiler
Why does he do me that way?
Human Nature
30k, of which 10k Hamas (and an unknown amount of the 20k, Hamas sympathizers). Very low ratio of innocents to enemies killed, one of the lowest in war history.
You know the most important metric, enemies defeated. Minimizing civilian loss of life.
I love how they exaggerate numbers
I love how they don't care if the numbers are hamas or civilian
I don't get why you are trying to have discussions with someone who denies atrocities against Israel and accepts everything Hamas says at face value
Israel can flood all the tunnels and likely kill the remaining hostages if they didn't care about them
The fact that Israel is even considering this Ramadan pause shows how much they care about the hostages
But you are trying to have a debate with someone who doesn't even believe israelis were raped ? Do you expect to change his mind? Do you expect to learn something from him?
30k, of which 10k Hamas (and an unknown amount of the 20k, Hamas sympathizers). Very low ratio of innocents to enemies killed, one of the lowest in war history.
You know the most important metric, enemies defeated. Minimizing civilian loss of life.
lol this is not even close to reality. like 20k are women and children. you are gonna claim that damn near every male killed was a Hamas fighter. get a grip. why do you guys say such outlandish stuff?
Can we put a moratorium on posting entire articles in here that everyone has to scroll past. Post the link. If people want to click it they can. Forcing your will on the thread is annoying as ****.
......so I took it at face value.
50k Palestinians dead with no end in sight.
You know, the most important metric , human life
You have your biases, but looking beyond this I think war colleges will be studying this offensive for years as a masterclass in subduing a hostile guerrilla force with minimal relative civilian casualties.
2 million people crammed in such a tiny area; with a well armed, highly motivated, well prepared, completely entrenched enemy with absolutely no regard for the life or safety of their own population. And in less than half a year the enemy cornered into a tiny area with massive casualties and extremely low morale and somewhere around a 3:1 to 5:1 civilian/combatant ratio (which is historically very humane, especially for urban conflict in such a dense population center).
Obviously Israel has had a lot of casualties too, but unfortunately that is always going to happen in this type of guerilla warfare.
Obviously a lot of militaries are A LOT bigger, and that matters. But man for man/woman, I suspect Israel might be on a very short list of military forces on level with the US. We should be very glad they are on the side of democracy and freedom; and not fighting for the forces of authoritarian fascism.
30k, of which 10k Hamas (and an unknown amount of the 20k, Hamas sympathizers). Very low ratio of innocents to enemies killed, one of the lowest in war history.
You know the most important metric, enemies defeated. Minimizing civilian loss of life.
What made you think the bolded is true? Assume your 2 civilians to 1 combatant number is true.
In Ukraine right now the US estimate for Ukrainian forces killed is 70000. The Ukrainian estimate for civilians killed is 11000.
In the Iran Iraq war in the 80s - total military dead was about 1.1m and civilian dead about 100k.
The Gulf War - military deaths 20-50k. Civilian deaths about 5k.
US Civil War - about 650k military dead and about 130k civilian dead.
I'm not sorting or filtering anything out other than I didn't pick WWII because of the Holocaust.
"one of the lowest in war history"?
I don't get why you are trying to have discussions with someone who denies atrocities against Israel and accepts everything Hamas says at face value
Israel can flood all the tunnels and likely kill the remaining hostages if they didn't care about them
The fact that Israel is even considering this Ramadan pause shows how much they care about the hostages
But you are trying to have a debate with someone who doesn't even believe israelis were ra
That dude straight up called migrants from Africa "garbage people" and you're concerned with who he bothers to talk to.
