Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Why would you start Oct 7? Gotta start at least in 2006
At this point it really does seem like western leftists and Muslims in the western world are the ones pushing hardest for a "ceasefire". And pretty much every other Muslim country in the region not directly allied with Iran is saying enough to "hopefully" keep their antisemitic populace satisfied, but not going beyond this; and behind the scenes may even be supporting Israel.
The power brokers in the region realize what an absolute disaster it would be for everyone, especially the Palestinian people, for Israel to stop now; with the current version of Hamas still in charge, UNRWA still in place, and the Rafah terror tunnel complex still in place. They know as long as incompetent terrorists and their sycophants in the UN are still running the show, all the future aid coming in would just be stolen and squandered, and it would be impossible to move forward in any meaningful way.
I recall a quote that was the opposite of that. It was a very long time ago, and I think it was in conjunction with the extremely large number of Chinese forces throwing themselves at greatly outnumbered American positions in the Korean War. It went:
" How do you stop a thousand attackers who dont care if they die?"
"with 100 men who do "
Of course, years later when NATOs strategy was to overcome the Soviets huge advantage in number of tanks
That works till it's counter-insurgency, and you're talking about people strapping themselves (or women and kids) with bombs. I think at that point the willingness to die is extremely difficult to overcome (and it's typically why nobody has actually won one of these).
That works till it's counter-insurgency, and you're talking about people strapping themselves (or women and kids) with bombs. I think at that point the willingness to die is extremely difficult to overcome (and it's typically why nobody has actually won one of these).
Well, it doesn't work under the moral code 21st century Western armies operate under, which is why they dont win wars anymore. Before that, I dont think it was as big an impediment.
When the Romans occupied Israel and Judea my understanding is the Jews engaged in what we would call terrorism today. And the Romans literally threw them all out, and that solved the problem quite effectively. For more modern examples, Turkey and Aizerbaijan are effectively dealing with minority non-Muslim "terrorists/freedom fighters" by ethnically cleansing them out.
Well, it doesn't work under the moral code 21st century Western armies operate under, which is why they dont win wars anymore. Before that, I dont think it was as big an impediment.
When the Romans occupied Israel and Judea my understanding is the Jews engaged in what we would call terrorism today. And the Romans literally threw them all out, and that solved the problem quite effectively. For more modern examples, Turkey and Aizerbaijan
Not even Nazis managed to crush the resistance in Naples, Rome and other Italian cities (which the Nazis temporarily occupied) so I am not sure you are right.
And the Italian resistance didn't have suicide bombers
Not even Nazis managed to crush the resistance in Naples, Rome and other Italian cities (which the Nazis temporarily occupied) so I am not sure you are right.
And the Italian resistance didn't have suicide bombers
The Nazis weren't around that long. Turkey turning one of the most diverse places in the world into a religious ethnostate is a project started in 1910 (or whenever) and is still very much ongoing. Even in the Spanish Reconquista it took time to get all the Jews and Muslims out, and their tactics were much harsher than even what is going on in Turkey and Aizerbaijan today.
And obviously we are excluding perhaps one of the most brutal, efficacious examples of a country dealing with insurgencies, in how the US dealt with the Native American populations, but it still took time.
That works till it's counter-insurgency, and you're talking about people strapping themselves (or women and kids) with bombs. I think at that point the willingness to die is extremely difficult to overcome (and it's typically why nobody has actually won one of these).
Hamas renounced suicide bombing like 15 years ago. these arent martyr missions.
Your example is "ongoing" for over 100 years, but you're blaming the moral code and not the time commitment required with western countries?
Anyways, the point is I dont think we appreciate how the norms imposed on the world by Pax Americana are actually the historical aberration. And the people cheering on people like Hamas, Houthis and Iran and the fall of America I think are in for a rude awakening how the world worked before and can very easily work again after if they ever get their wish.
Well, it doesn't work under the moral code 21st century Western armies operate under, which is why they dont win wars anymore. Before that, I dont think it was as big an impediment.
When the Romans occupied Israel and Judea my understanding is the Jews engaged in what we would call terrorism today. And the Romans literally threw them all out, and that solved the problem quite effectively. For more modern examples, Turkey and Aizerbaijan
I'd like to hear from one of the Jewish historians itt. Seems like after the first mass expulsion "solved the problem quite effectively" there was another mass rebellion 60 years later with hundreds of thousands of casualties.
I don't think Roman tactics really "solved the problem" throughout the rest of the empire either. It was more that they solved the problem temporarily and caused a bigger future problem due to the resentment caused by how they went about solving the previous problem.
pro Hamas propaganda from the Israeli president makes Israel look like genociders
Anyways, the point is I dont think we appreciate how the norms imposed on the world by Pax Americana are actually the historical aberration. And the people cheering on people like Hamas, Houthis and Iran and the fall of America I think are in for a rude awakening how the world worked before and can very easily work again after if they ever get their wish.
I do appreciate that global trade is predicated upon the pax Americana, although I disagree with the idea it's an aberration.
Local hegemons mostly did the same in the past in areas surrounding them.
What's kinda unprecedented although one could claim the UK did that first is the global scale of the operation but that's linked more to technological progress than to any special American characteristic.
UK and US are basically one and the same militarily
At this point you are likely correct.
I think historically as it pertains to Israel and Islamofascism; the US has always been the country which took a realpolitik approach toward tolerating (and often supporting) Islamists and antisemitism, to keep open access to Saudi oil; while Britain generally favored a more principled approach.
Remember, at one point Israel and Britain actually captured the Suez Canal, and it was the US that made them to give it back. Some historians mark this rebuke as the official end of the British Empire.
It is definitely an interesting counterfactual to try to guess how things may have turned out different if the US had taken a more principled, and less realpolitik, approach towards combating Islamism and antisemitism going rampant in the Middle East for the last 80 years.
Of course not. I just say at least what I think is true. You must have me confused with someone else.
Lotta Hamas rockets misfire for sure. Probably Hamas militants have shot people to keep them from evacuating. Those things probably don't add up to more than 5-10%, but shrug. For sure most of the people killed in Gaza have been killed by the IDF. As far as how many? Yeah, likely 50k or something. Most people who try to count are ove
why do you think bolded?
At this point you are likely correct.
I think historically as it pertains to Israel and Islamofascism; the US has always been the country which took a realpolitik approach toward tolerating (and often supporting) Islamists and antisemitism, to keep open access to Saudi oil; while Britain generally favored a more principled approach.
Remember, at one point Israel and Britain actually captured the Suez Canal, and it was the US that made them
yea the evil brits waged war against aghanistan too at least 2 times.
they dont have many fans there.
hey victor look up "rommel el sain"
he is a mafia member of one of the most powerful clans in europe.
his clan is of palestinian descent, and they control a lot of illegal businesses in europe and he is named after rommel the uber nazi of ww3.
