Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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More Miss Israels posted in this thread, less dead children.
Thanks.
Tell me what is despicable about the post?
It’s just pointing out a fact, not making a recommendation.
Are you just uncomfortable with the fact such scenario even exists?
I know I am.
But I also know many conflicts in history only ended after one side was so thoroughly defeated, often massacred, it no longer had the will, or sometimes even a critical mass of people alive, to resist.
If you need to ask how essentially advocating genocide is despicable then I don't know what to tell you, except maybe book an appointment with Ganstman, as he's a psychiatrist so might be able to fit you in.
I am not advocating for genocide. I am recognizing Israel could do far worse and, if Hamas and its worst affiliates are not removed, likely will be pushed to do far worse in the not too distant future.
I am not advocating for genocide. I am recognizing Israel could do far worse and, if Hamas and its worst affiliates are not removed, likely will be pushed to do far worse in the not too distant future.
Sorry I'm afraid you are.
I honestly think if Israel ceased all restraint and just leveled Gaza and West Bank and annexed the ruins and remaining survivors, fewer Israelis would die.
Bolded very strongly implies justification or killing every Gazan, ergo genocide ergo advocacy for genocide. I'm just going by what you wrote.
Huh. Go ahead and live in your fairy la la land and pretend everything will be fine if Israel just stopped fighting and Hamas is allowed to resume like nothing happened. I am not going to live in dream world.
And go ahead and pretend Hamas won’t find another gap in Israeli defenses at some point and commit another atrocity.
I have made it no secret I think Israel is botching its response in Gaza today right now and that it has a moral obligation to the Gazan civilians. To be blunt, I do think Israel needs to put more of its soldiers at risk to ensure better outcomes, both for the Gazans and for modern Israelis, that don’t involve the total destruction of a people.
But I am not blind to the fact Israel could be far more brutal and decide to just live with another original sin and make Israel a safer place for future generations of Israelis.
Being willfully blind helps nobody except Iran and the Hamas leadership safely ensconced in some Ritz Carlton in the ME rolling in aid money intended for Gazan civilians.
You want the conflict to stop? Demilitarize Gaza and remove Hamas then make sure current Gazans are fed and future Gazans don’t grow up on hateful Hamas propaganda. And yes, that almost certainly means decades long occupation.
and then Israeli telegram channels with 100s of thousands of followers celebrated and made fun of him.
this is just one example
its a society that is reveling in the genocide.
Hamas supporters posting photos of kids with celebral palsy that fed on tubes claiming israel made they starve is the new bottom low of hamas propaganda.
It's easier to normal (ie non-hamas-supporting) people to simply disregard everything you guys push around as completly fake because we just waste time on actual debunking anyway and it has no use, sides are already clear, lines are drawn, no one is going to change his mind anymore about this stuff.
Hamas supporters posting photos of kids with celebral palsy that fed on tubes claiming israel made they starve is the new bottom low of hamas propaganda.
It's easier to normal (ie non-hamas-supporting) people to simply disregard everything you guys push around as completly fake because we just waste time on actual debunking anyway and it has no use, sides are already clear, lines are drawn, no one is going to change his mind anymore about th
the only people that think its fake are westerners. Israelis know its real and celebrate it.
theres no shortage of these pics on twitter and telegram.
Huh. Go ahead and live in your fairy la la land and pretend everything will be fine if Israel just stopped fighting and Hamas is allowed to resume like nothing happened. I am not going to live in dream world.
I'm pro Israel and understand the context of Israel's methodology. Your comment here only highlights all the more how you're coming across as advocating genocide as you weren't talking about Hamas in your original post but on totally obliterating Gaza with justification given for it.
And go ahead and pretend Hamas won’t find another gap in Israeli defenses at some point and commit another atrocity.
You're making presumptions about me.
I have made it no secret I think Israel is botching its response in Gaza today right now and that it has a moral obligation to the Gazan civilians. To be blunt, I do think Israel needs to put more of its soldiers at risk to ensure better outcomes, both for the Gazans and for modern Israelis, that don’t involve the total destruction of a people.
I know. I've read- and have enjoyed reading- your posts. It's what makes your last comment so disturbing and perplexing as I've seen you recognise nuance and engaging in critique at times against certain actions of Israel as well as recognising how a fanatical death cult such as Hamas needs eradicating, down to the last fighter if necessary.
But I am not blind to the fact Israel could be far more brutal and decide to just live with another original sin and make Israel a safer place for future generations of Israelis.
Yes they could which is why I've no time for the genocide accusations against Israel. Huge difference between recognising this and justifying genocide, so it's the second part of this comment I have an issue with.
Being willfully blind helps nobody except Iran and the Hamas leadership safely ensconced in some Ritz Carlton in the ME rolling in aid money intended for Gazan civilians.
This is yet more justification. Should Russia nuke Ukraine to save Russian lives? Should China nuke Taiwan to prevent huge Chinese losses in a land invasion? Should America nuke the Middle East to prevent loss of American lives via ME origin terror attacks? You're not thick. I'm sure you can see the precedent this would set. Again I'm quite perplexed at your original comment.
You want the conflict to stop? Demilitarize Gaza and remove Hamas then make sure current Gazans are fed and future Gazans don’t grow up on hateful Hamas propaganda. And yes, that almost certainly means decades long occupation.
Which is preferable to genocide even if occupation will come with its own problems. You really need to rethink your stance here.
What stance should I rethink? Are you saying pointing out uncomfortable fact itself is advocacy/support for the fact and I should just never discuss what could happen if Hamas is allowed to persist?
This one
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
Where you advocated genocide by providing justification for obliterating Gaza, Gazans and any remaining Gazan survivors.
Huh. Go ahead and live in your fairy la la land and pretend everything will be fine if Israel just stopped fighting and Hamas is allowed to resume like nothing happened. I am not going to live in dream world.
And go ahead and pretend Hamas won’t find another gap in Israeli defenses at some point and commit another atrocity.
I have made it no secret I think Israel is botching its response in Gaza today right now and that it has a moral obligat
Right bc the decades long occupation has worked so well so far
The irony of this exchange is I made the post in question to point out the absurdity of not risking ANY Israeli life as justification for not administering aid to Gazans.
There is clearly a tradeoff and unless you’re prepared to go absolutely nuclear (figuratively and possibly literally and I really hope they aren’t), Israeli decision to prevent aid into Gaza over past few weeks and months is pure stupidity.
Pointing out that there is a tradeoff isn’t the same as advocating for or justifying a maximalist outcome.
PS: I just realized the context was probably lost because the posters I have on ignore probably took the convo somewhere else already.
You came across as justifying genocide grizy. I'm not saying that was your intention but that's how it came across as and I wasn't the only pro Israel poster who noticed and commented on it either.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
Quote:
Originally Posted by grizy
I honestly think if Israel ceased all restraint and just leveled Gaza and West Bank and annexed the ruins and remaining survivors, fewer Israelis would die. They'd be ostracized for a while but the world will move on.
And again regardless of your personal intention, it came across as pretty despicable. We'll leave it at that.
Fair enough.
I still think it’s worth emphasizing that’s where we are headed unless Hamas is removed.
And removing Hamas quickly necessarily involves Israel acting as humanely as possible even as they use force and inflict unfathomable amount of pain on the Palestinian people.
They aren’t doing that.
If anything, it looks more and more like the decision makers are completely disinterested in the welfare of Palestinians and some may even revel in inflicting pain on Gazans.
I have made it no secret that I think the use of force, and a lot of it, is justified, even if it means a lot of collateral damage.
But that use of force comes with responsibilities to minimize unnecessary pain. Responsibilities Israel (at least Bibi’s government) increasingly seem uninterested in. Consequently, way more are dying and suffering than necessary, even if making allowances for incompetence and resource limitations.
And that’s when otherwise justified collateral damage becomes collective punishment worthy of being called a war crime.
How many of those 2b Muslims are whackadoo jihadists?
Enough in lenanon, syria and egypt alone, right?
There are enough.
Fair enough.
I still think it’s worth emphasizing that’s where we are headed unless Hamas is removed.
And removing Hamas quickly necessarily involves Israel acting as humanely as possible even as they use force and inflict unfathomable amount of pain on the Palestinian people.
They aren’t doing that.
If anything, it looks more and more like the decision makers are completely disinterested in the welfare of Palestinians and some may even revel i
Okay. I think I now get what you were trying to say and your post here is fair, cheers.
Fair enough.
I still think it’s worth emphasizing that’s where we are headed unless Hamas is removed.
And removing Hamas quickly necessarily involves Israel acting as humanely as possible even as they use force and inflict unfathomable amount of pain on the Palestinian people.
They aren’t doing that.
If anything, it looks more and more like the decision makers are completely disinterested in the welfare of Palestinians and some may even revel i
you really just dont get it
its not stupid. or a mistake. or collateral damage. or disinterest in the civilians.
its the policy. its the goal.
*Boiiinng!*
Fair enough.
I still think it’s worth emphasizing that’s where we are headed unless Hamas is removed.
And removing Hamas quickly necessarily involves Israel acting as humanely as possible even as they use force and inflict unfathomable amount of pain on the Palestinian people.
They aren’t doing that.
If anything, it looks more and more like the decision makers are completely disinterested in the welfare of Palestinians and some may even revel i
It looks like the Israelis have again dug a hole for themselves, partly because the scale of destruction looks Putin-ish and partly because they have no idea what comes next, that is, who now rules and administers Gaza. They won't tolerate Hamas, but the resentment generated by the war may haunt them. And the Americans seem to be thinking of temporary port facilities (like the Mulberry Harbours in Normandy in '44) to relieve the imminent famine, and once Gaza has port facilities the whole situation changes, the previous Israeli sea blockade fails and the scope for economic development becomes considerable, and it may be that Israel has discredited itself too badly to say 'No, we want to keep 'em down.'
