Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Btw for the people who support Hamas in here, here's a mental exercise:
Hamas is given access to a device (gas, nuke, pathogen, water supply, otherwise) they can use to eliminate Tel Aviv and kill 450k people in the process.
In this fictional timeline, in a post Oct 7th world, do you honestly think they don't?
Spoiler
Israel has this ability today, in the real world. And we know they don't.
(Not an Hamas supporter)
It's possible they wouldn't because of the approx 20k Arabs living in Jaffa, and because that wouldn't end the state of Israel nor Jews and the retaliation would be the actual genocide of all Palestinians.
In general for strategic rationales I think we shouldn't presume irrationality on the Hamas side, their Iranian masters are quite rational usually so we have to enter their model of the world and check if an action would be deemed rational for them.
I am not sure annihilating the whole population of tel Aviv, if it was possible, would be considered rational (advantageous for their cause) by them
(Not an Hamas supporter)
It's possible they wouldn't because of the approx 20k Arabs living in Jaffa, and because that wouldn't end the state of Israel nor Jews and the retaliation would be the actual genocide of all Palestinians.
In general for strategic rationales I think we shouldn't presume irrationality on the Hamas side, their Iranian masters are quite rational usually so we have to enter their model of the world and check if an action
Luciom, what part since Oct 7th has shown regard for Arab lives? That's both in Israel on Oct 7th, and then what followed.
Victor they are absolutely NOT clear to you. You have literally never understood them, and you've shown that every step of the way in this thread.
They want to end the occupation and the continuous murder of their people and theft of their resources.
This is a threat to your supremacy and ideology which believes Israel should own all the land and keep a few pet Arabs as slaves.
Bc their very existence is the threat to this supremacy, you do things like advocate to handle them which is just a very very thinly disguised call for a final solution on them.
Here's word for word pasted from the newest 2017 charter:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas...
25. Resisting the occupation with all means and methods is a legitimate right guaranteed by divine laws and by international norms and laws. At the heart of these lies armed resistance, which is regarded as the strategic choice for protecting the principles and the rights of the Palestinian people.
26. Hamas rejects any attempt to undermine the resistance and its arms. It also affirms the right of our people to develop the means and mechanisms of resistance. Managing resistance, in terms of escalation or de-escalation, or in terms of diversifying the means and methods, is an integral part of the process of managing the conflict and should not be at the expense of the principle of resistance.
2. Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity.
18. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.
19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, judaisation or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.
So THAT, is the 2017 charter. Israel doesn't exist. The UN partition doesn't exist. We will take it all back by any means necessary. After Oct 7th, people want to question what any means necessary looks like? Guys the written words and the facts on the ground do not agree with you so far.
They want to end the occupation and the continuous murder of their people and theft of their resources.
This is a threat to your supremacy and ideology which believes Israel should own all the land and keep a few pet Arabs as slaves.
Bc their very existence is the threat to this supremacy, you do things like advocate to handle them which is just a very very thinly disguised call for a final solution on them.
They weren't occupied pre 10 7 and they had nothing worthwhile to steal
They want to end the occupation and the continuous murder of their people and theft of their resources.
This is a threat to your supremacy and ideology which believes Israel should own all the land and keep a few pet Arabs as slaves.
Bc their very existence is the threat to this supremacy, you do things like advocate to handle them which is just a very very thinly disguised call for a final solution on them.
No.
I just pasted what they want a few posts above, in their own carefully crafted document. You can read that, or not.
Of course Hamas would, but the comparison doesn't really show what it's meant to show.
If Israel was not tied to the international community and wouldn't suddenly be the target of every military in the region would they exercise this option too?
They reserve the right to develop the means and mechanisms of resistance. Hmmm. I just don't know what that means....
Of course Hamas would, but the comparison doesn't really show what it's meant to show.
If Israel was not tied to the international community and wouldn't suddenly be the target of every military in the region would they exercise this option too?
I'm glad you asked that. In every defensive war, Israel was green lit to absolutely annihilate their attackers. Did they, beyond their military objectives? They were SO restrained compared to wars in other countries in those spots. Cairo never got shelled (to my knowledge). They were well within their rights to.
Next, did the wall get built before, or after 140 suicide bombers?
Israel typically does the very least possible, until it has no choice left anymore (I'm sure we can find exceptions). Gaza didn't start with a blockade, it earned one. So to answer your question, for Israel to absolutely wipe out 450k Gazans in one shot would be something that would have to be "earned". The only thing that could "earn" that is Hamas doing it first (my hypothetical).
Because what I wanted to ask after that mental exercise, is say Hamas does do it. They kill 450k Israelis in one shot. What is Israel justified to reply with? 500k? 1M? How does that score keeping work?
Israel is still tied to the international community which clearly doesn't have the stomach for such actions, even if they're in response to horrors like Oct 7. The world community clearly has not green lit Israel to destroy Gaza, as we are seeing today.
Also comparing (in particular the militant wing of) Hamas to all of Israel isn't really fair either. If the roles were reversed is it possible that Otzma Yehudit would be dominant party and Likud would be a minority? Would they launch Oct 7 type attacks? Pretty hard to tell, I'm guessing yes.
The situation is awful and the hatred both sides have for the other is understandable. I do not think either one is above the other really.
Israel is still tied to the international community which clearly doesn't have the stomach for such actions, even if they're in response to horrors like Oct 7. The world community clearly has not green lit Israel to destroy Gaza, as we are seeing today.
Also comparing (in particular the militant wing of) Hamas to all of Israel isn't really fair either. If the roles were reversed is it possible that Otzma Yehudit would be dominant party and L
If Israel marched all their women and children to the border with Gaza, what happens?
That's the difference between one, and the other. That outcome. There IS a difference.
If we remove all outside influence over Israel what happens?
Like a war between both sides where Iran/Lebanon/Syria and USA/World just doesn't exist? A pure vacuum?
Probably 100-200k dead civilians and all 30k dead Hamas? Probably something like that.
Which is how it would go in any war.
What makes this one entirely unique is the civilians cannot flee. When else has that ever happened? Anyone recall the last conflict where no neighbouring country would take refugees? I struggle to recall the last.
Of course Hamas would, but the comparison doesn't really show what it's meant to show.
If Israel was not tied to the international community and wouldn't suddenly be the target of every military in the region would they exercise this option too?
how would nuking a city help the resistance to end the occupation and secure their freedom?
why do you think this way about Palestinians?
Like a war between both sides where Iran/Lebanon/Syria and USA/World just doesn't exist? A pure vacuum?
Probably 100-200k dead civilians and all 30k dead Hamas? Probably something like that.
Which is how it would go in any war.
What makes this one entirely unique is the civilians cannot flee. When else has that ever happened? Anyone recall the last conflict where no neighbouring country would take refugees? I struggle to recall the last.
It wasn't impossible to move for Tamil but in general it was really quite hard, during the sri lanka civil war.
Very few tamils managed to flee, a few tens of thousands at most iirc.
btw for you ethics experts and philosophers, my previous question stands.
If Hamas gets the means to take out 450k Israelis in one shot, what's the accepted strike back? Because the rest of the world in that spot isn't being held to 1 for 1. If Austin gets hit and 500k American dies, nobody is telling the USA they can hit back and take out 500k also. At that point the gloves are off.
I ask this because the odds of this happening are not 0 in our lifetime. We could see it.
Hold your horses there! They do want to kill Christians and atheists as well, but I think Jews are their first priority.
show your work.
thousands of Christians have lived in Gaza alongside Hamas for decades without being murdered.
there are multiple secular godless Commie groups fighting alongside Hamas right now.
how would nuking a city help the resistance to end the occupation and secure their freedom?
why do you think this way about Palestinians?
Replace "nuking a city" with the sum total of Oct 7th, and then answer your own question.
And it can be any method to mass extinct 450k Jews. Doesn't have to be nuke. Truth is we don't know what weapons will look like in 20 years with AI figuring the next stages out.
Here's word for word pasted from the newest 2017 charter:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas...
25. Resisting the occupation with all means and methods is a legitimate right guaranteed by divine laws and by international norms and laws. At the heart of these lies armed resistance, which is regarded as the strategic choice for protecting the principles and the rights of the Palestinian people.
26.
every single one of those things Zionists assert against the Palestinians. wake me up when they "recognized the legitimacy of a Palestinian entity".
they dont need to recognize each for freedom and peace.
everything else in there is ofc proper and reasonable.
Replace "nuking a city" with the sum total of Oct 7th, and then answer your own question.
And it can be any method to mass extinct 450k Jews. Doesn't have to be nuke. Truth is we don't know what weapons will look like in 20 years with AI figuring the next stages out.
Oct 7th was a military operation with intention of taking hostages.
if Hamas gets the bomb, then they dont even need any hostages. alternatively you could say they would actually already have them at that point.
every single one of those things Zionists assert against the Palestinians. wake me up when they "recognized the legitimacy of a Palestinian entity".
they dont need to recognize each for freedom and peace.
everything else in there is ofc proper and reasonable.
As per usual, once you are soundly defeated in debate, you deflect.
You made a horrendous false claim on Hamas and what they wanted. I convincingly dismantled/disproved your claim with fact.
Deflect, deflect.
Do better Vic
As per usual, once you are soundly defeated in debate, you deflect.
You made a horrendous false claim on Hamas and what they wanted. I convincingly dismantled/disproved your claim with fact.
Deflect, deflect.
Do better Vic
every one of those points supports my argument.
the only one that you can contend with is the bullshit "bend the knee" "recognize my authority" crap. so thats the one I addressed and showed how it does not contradict me.
