Israel/Palestine thread

I process it well enough to understand that when 27 people are shot under normal circumstances, trauma helicopters are getting called.

The attacks on what you'd consider "Palestinian" villages between 1947 and 1949 are one thing. Give or take, that's what you're talking about. That's quite a leap from "invading Palestine in 1948". The Jews were already all over what you call Palestine. They didn't just "arrive".

But the fighting between them starts in the 1880's and progresses. In all that fighting there were proposals where the Jews got 17% of the present territory (the Jews accepted that btw). THAT was turned down. In those 70 years you have vicious pogroms of the Jews, their villages attacked too (so we can call that one about even).

So when the split happens, and it's Transjordan to the Arabs and Israel to the Jews, really the whole Arab world knew the wink wink nudge nudge was "don't worry, the second the Brits set sail, it's gonna be 0% for them". The invasion that happened in 1948 was certainly by someone. But it wasn't the Jews. Had the Arabs succeeded in that invasion, I guess we aren't in here talking about this today.

Why were 100k Palestinians displaced and forced into the nakbar?

There's a whole bunch of reasons why so many Arabs were displaced, or left, or fought against. You have to pick even down to the village to discuss why. There's no one answer for every location. But your 100k number isn't correct btw (it's more).

Now that said, in no wars of independence that I know, are people not displaced by the 6-7 figure. Pick your place I'll show you the same. They gave it a Arabic name, that's one of the few unique features of it to my eyes.

I can show the same from Jews and places like Iraq. Or the Hindus and Pakistanis. Or the indigenous people in North America. These things happened in these wars. It's real. But when Israel declared independence post UN resolution, they did invite the Arabs to stay and live among them. That did happen. So we can question how much of the violence that came after really needed to happen, had cooler more reasonable heads prevailed.

Or if any Nakba even needed to happen if the Arabs had let the Jews have the 17% the first time (in the 30's) when it was offered. Imagine the world today? Decisions do have consequences. 83% for the Arabs and 17% for the Jews probably has a nice ring to it today.

750k

Rafiki, have you read this book? Have you heard of it?

Wait Victor said Israel invaded Palestine in 1948

LololololLolololol

Citation to show they didn’t

Now is when we get into a semantic argument about what I vasion means.

I don't know what your point is. I don't agree with what Israel is doing either, even if I understand where they're coming from

Guys maybe this is a silly naive question, but I'll ask.

In 1937, when 17% of the mandate to the Jews was a "no"from the Arabs, what percentage do we think might have been ok? The Jews already owned 4-5% from legal land purchases, for context.

In your estimation, what number were the Arabs shooting for? Cause it kinda looks like they were shooting for 0% to anyone paying attention.

The Nazis didn't put down their weapons bro Hitler got killed and they lost the war. We MADE them put down their weapons

You are the one who is not rational wrt to Russia/Ukraine. You may disagree with conscription or whatever, but they have to survive somehow...lest you trust Putin to uphold any agreement, act in good faith (he's a pathologically lying psychopath), and think it's ok to let them march into Kyiv and assassinate Zelenskyy

Saw this clown shoes post in the quotes. Thanks for reminding me why I have you on ignore. Either clueless, or deliberate obtuse. Either way, zero value added to this thread

all of these leaders are pathologically lying psychopaths. how many people did Bush Clinton and Obama kill? how many promises did they break?

nobody is saying to trust Putin. that would be as dumb as trusting the USA. the idea is to put in place agreements that ensure a long term peace. I simply dont agree with the characterization of Putin as a Hitler-esque figure that is hell-bent on domination who will always start wars.

damn really? what about Benny Morris, hes more your style albeit proly too nice to the Palestinians. he agrees that Israel forced them out but he claims it was in the heat of battle or whatever and then says it was a good thing and they should have finished the job.

Because I genuinely (and without malice) believe you just don't know:

The Israel problem is a problem of no nation wanting to police the Arabs and Jews anymore in the region we know today as Israel (and a bit broader than that). Ironically this is probably still true today.

They were both there for a long time before 1948. As refugees (from at least 3 major events), the Jewish population increased largely over some 70 years (refugees coming back to the place of their ancestral religious heritage). And the Arabs truly could not tolerate them there (as is evidenced by a lot of violence, and the turning down of the 17% offer with Peel among others).

This problem just deepened, it was obvious it was not going be something the Brits could manage. So the Arabs got the Jordan piece (and other Arabs got other countries before and after), and the Jews got the Israel peace. That was the split. Like I said, it's a matter of historic record that the Jews invited the Arabs to stay. But there's no real reason to stay when the Arab radio stations are saying "don't worry, we're coming". And that's what they did (over the radio), even while the Brits were still in country. The whole world was waiting for the invasion that followed because it was the world's worst kept secret.

The Arabs invaded Israel in 1948 (Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, some divisions from other countries). That is the famous war of independence the Arab population was waiting for to get back 100% of the country. It didn't go their way, and the world has been working off the UN partition pretty much since. Like every other country the UN helped create.

In a might is right world agreements aren't enforceable if power is asymmetrical.

Putin isn't Hitler, he is just a run of the mill "normal" dictator of a country that was very powerful in the past and is now but a shadow of what it was, while still having a little power here and there.

As such he is desperate to cling to SOME geopolitical influence at least with their neighbors.

So he gambled on a pretty reckless invasion of a bordering country because of complicated reasons.

He mist simply be put on his place where he can't do anything of the sort anymore to anyone, that's how you enforce a situation where Ukraine is safe.

How exactly to reach that outcome isn't obvious but unless you agree that's the outcome every decent person should aim for, to make Putin and Russia hapless and physical incapable of projecting any power outside their borders, there is no "agreement" possible.

They think Palestine was an actual country that got given to Jews lol.

lol I just realized that hit piece was written by Morris.

The part that really sucks is there have been at least 6 spots where negotiating was right there. I keep saying the 17% because that was the most outrageously pro-Arab split of them all. But there have been so many darn spots to take a good deal and the Arabs overplayed their hand every single time.

If you keep martingaling this thing, and that's exactly the Hamas way, eventually you just end up ruined. And we're staring that right in the face today. At some point put the weapons down and take a damn deal.

Maybe someone would be kind enough to tell quote this post of me telling Teflon to go take a flying leap somewhere (or however I'm allowed to insult people these days).

Israel agreed to the UN partition plan
Israel declared independence
The 5 arab nations declared war on Israel
And then after being attacked, the nabka happened mostly because arab nations encouraged people to leave until they won the land back

So no it didn't happen from Israel stealing land

The "Jordan piece " was 68% of the mandate by the way