The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Bad beats are part of the game. I understand that. But after absorbing more than my fair share on Poker Stars I switched to Full Tilt six months ago. The first few months were much better over on Full Tilt.

Now Full Tilt is worse than Poker Stars ever was. The past month has been brutal. Tonight I've had pocket aces six times. All six times I lost to someone with a lower pocket pair.

I can't tell you how many times (at least 100 times the past thee weeks) where someone needs one card, especially two or three hours into a tournament, and they hit when odds are 90 to 95% in my favor.

You tell yourself that's poker until it happens time after time after time.

I enjoy playing poker online but I'm about ready to give it up. There doesn't seem to be a site to where it plays out like a casino. You see bad beats in a casino but NOTHING like Full Tilt and Poker Stars back when I played over on that site.

Curious as to others observations. Is there a site that's on the up and up or is it time to retire from online poker where you start to get the feeling the deck literally is stacked against you?

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Edit/MH: See:

by franxic P

I hereby confirm what Bobo said for the record:

It is possible to rig random number generators. Everyone please refrain from making false statements about what I said and didn't say. I made that exact statement several times itt. Here, i acknowledged it.
It was acknowledged at least a combined 500 times from about every non-riggie posting itt, yet riggies keep repeating that point over and over, because they don't really care about correctnes

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Edit/MH: An interesting article from 1999: https://www.developer.com/tech/article.p...

22 July 2008 at 04:53 AM
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124 Replies

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by Bobo Fett P

...because he hasn't posted on 2+2 in 4 months?


Oh. OK then.

I guess you would know, as you seem pretty obsessed with him.


Monteroy battling and roasting us riggies reminds me of the old online era, so I want to keep talking trash on him til he comes back and enters the arena once again.


Sounds exciting.


i have been active on that platform for a few month now. i am someone who deposits there weekly, once or twice on average instead of big ones every few months, and the thing that is ABSOLUTELY noticeable, is that each time i make a deposit i run extremely good. i manage to make a profit of 300-400bb in a couple of hours on average, it goes without saying that it is nothing like that a day or any time later.

i really think this is one of the ways they are rigging their site by boosting win rates for players who deposit and i have found an exploit (although some people are probably already abusing the **** of it and keeping it to themselves)

This pattern is there from what ive observed at the last 8-10 times i made a deposit, it keeps repeating in the same manner. when you put money into the system you give others the bad beats, winning with a straight vs lower straights, flipping sets and full houses like crazy win every allin ect.. it is NOTHING like that after a couple of days, you are not even close to running that hot, not in the not in the slightest.

if anyone here has the motivation to "investigate", this is the direction. i dont think it would be too hard to obtain evidence by comparing EV and bb/per hour on regular accounts and on those who have just made a deposit.


a few screenshots to illustrate. i know that this is not solid evidence for anything but its my 2 cents, hopefully they get busted someday, cause
from my experience, i know for sure that they are not providing fair play and definitely favor and benefit players under certain conditions.







Yeah, nah.

Potentially has much more to do with the fact that when you deposit you are determined to play better, then after a couple of sessions or one bad beat normality creeps in and you start donk attacking and punt off your BR.


Im fascinated to understand what you think those screenshots show. A 67 hand session and a 551 hand session where in both you won over 20% of the hands. On one, you won 57% of showdowns but on the other only 30%. You don't indicate whether you made a deposit or not before these sessions or whether you won or not during these sessions.

There have been enough supposedly outlandish claims made over the years in this forum that turned out to be true that I never dismiss them out of hand anymore, but you're just giving us nothing here.

And one last question - if you know "for sure", you have a free money printing press. Go for it and let us know how it works.


I'm not sure if this is entirely true but somehow i can relate to this, i haven't deposited single penny since first deposit and game constantly tries to bust me but i always move down stakes and grind back, running cycles like a mouse, i'm micro/low stakes player you can check my thread in goals what coolers and bad beats i got lately it's damn insane and after i won last BBJ and placed top 20 in daily flipout things got worse and worse

I noticed i was doing pretty well when my red lane was high and i was 3betting a lot and bluffing a lot post flop, winning pots before showdown but as soon as i adapted to more stable playing style to win more at showdowns with better hands things got worse

Maybe this is just normal variance, maybe not but im starting to believe that online poker can be programmed as they want to give us hard time, live poker is purest form as it should be, online poker is just simulation and cannot be 100% trusted in my opinion


Fish are just fascinated with poker sites rigging RNG. Despite it being the only form of cheating that was never proven in the last 20 years aka never happened, and despite the fact it is by far the hardest way for a poker site to cheat you.

Forget unbeatable rake with ambiguous rake back, house bots, forget RTA, VPN(half of GG is playing from Austria ok lol), super using, or any form of collusion… your opponent hitting a flush is the biggest red flag.


by Punker P

Im fascinated to understand what you think those screenshots show. A 67 hand session and a 551 hand session where in both you won over 20% of the hands. On one, you won 57% of showdowns but on the other only 30%. You don't indicate whether you made a deposit or not before these sessions or whether you won or not during these sessions.

There have been enough supposedly outlandish claims made over the years in this forum that turned out to be

the screenshots are a typical example of how "good" i run after every deposit i make. as you can see im up 300bb+ in a short time in both cases and it is like that all the time for when i deposit. i never hit those numbers otherwise, only badbeats mostly or just a regular non profitable game. i deposit more than 15 times on the site. small amouts, usually once a week, and it is always like that, they are boosting people who deposit by giving them easy boards and an advantage.

by ProffesionalMalaka P

Fish are just fascinated with poker sites rigging RNG. Despite it being the only form of cheating that was never proven in the last 20 years aka never happened, and despite the fact it is by far the hardest way for a poker site to cheat you.

Forget unbeatable rake with ambiguous rake back, house bots, forget RTA, VPN(half of GG is playing from Austria ok lol), super using, or any form of collusion… your opponent hitting a flush is the bigge

doesnt mean they wont try and maximize profits


variance, look it up


It's not just variance. It's ego and lack of discipline

Even the best players go through downswings. They just end up profiting anyway because variance has nothing to do with your true win or loss rate. Variance just determines how large or small your swings will be, be that up or down...

It is very hard to handle the downswings psychologically. The reason people believe in the "cash out curse" is because they are seeing things that aren't actually happening. Cashing out doesn't make you lose. It's just that a withdrawal coinciding with a downswing yields an association which combines with the already difficult effect losing has on the mind...

Your bankroll is always going up or down. Deposits and withdrawals have nothing to do with it

The other issue is a lot of players have lower true win rates than they think they do and either can't, or refuse to comprehend/admit that. There are also a lot of losing players who think they're supposed to be winning players when they just aren't ever going to plug their own leaks or are too arrogant and/or lazy to even try to do so. So many other reasons

Within that, variance makes it very difficult to navigate the process of yielding profit. If you think online poker is "pointless" because of variance, then I've got news for you. You just don't handle it well and you also may not actually be beating the rake and your opponents in the long run. Luck obfuscates the true hierarchy of skill, but skill wins out in the long run every single time. I and others I know are living proof of that

Also, if you hate variance in online poker, then daily fantasy sports would like to say "hold my beer"

Dfs is ****ing impossible and way way WAY higher variance than poker. Poker is like an ATM machine to me. Dfs...I strained myself trying to get better and all I yielded was a few grand...

Suffice to say, losing ****ing sucks and affects you more than winning does. It is not a 1:1 effect on the mind. You have to understand, accept, and be prepared for that if you want a chance to have success. Even good players go broke because it isn't just about being good at a poker. You have to manage your ego and have discipline too, both in understanding the math and how to properly manage your bankroll (assuming you actually even beat whatever games you choose to play in the first place)


by Quadsmaster P

... i have found an exploit (although some people are probably already abusing the **** of it and keeping it to themselves) ...

Those good for nothing's!!! How dare they cheat you like that!?


See another potential problem with the site is this. You're playing with the biggest fish and you run normal for a particular period of time. Then you getting a downswing and I don't care what hand you have you cannot win. So it seems weird because no matter what you do you lose. So this is where people start to question am I playing against bots. Because they go well my win rate is down. And I'm saying yes this happens at every site but on this site it's a constant thing for me anyway. Other sites I might have normal runs for two three four months before I have a down swing. On ignition I have a down swing right after I have an upswing every single time playing against the worst players on the planet. It just doesn't make any sense this is why I say I'm not sure that I 100% by the random generator on the site. This could also be people's experience and they attributed to bots and it may not be


by jungmit P

See another potential problem with the site is this. You're playing with the biggest fish and you run normal for a particular period of time. Then you getting a downswing and I don't care what hand you have you cannot win. So it seems weird because no matter what you do you lose. So this is where people start to question am I playing against bots. Because they go well my win rate is down. And I'm saying yes this happens at every site but on

I think the higher rake and worse players leads to bigger capacity for large swings, ESPECIALLY if you aren't table selecting.

But idk that might not even be true. Hands also play slower than other sites so that doesn't help the feeling of how long a run is lasting.


I own a video that to anyone else but me could look as though the hand I played was fixed, as I clearly lost the hand and the software said I had won with a 9 high straight and I was paid out as the winner, I did not make a straight I had 7 high, the hand was played out to the end, which included betting /calling and checking.

My opponent should of won the this with a pair but lost. I got the sites replayer up and immediately checked everything, then of course I took a picture of the hand and number and then made a video of the poker hand,

I tried to get in touch with Ipoker and Betfair but after spending hours running around talking to bots and chat reps telling them I wanted to talk with Betfair, which they would not do unless certain conditions were met, so I gave up. I think it would be easier to talk with Genghis Khan

I then emailed Playtech to see if this would interest them, and got a nice reply saying unfortunatly they can do nothing to help as it comes under the privacy regulations with my account and was told its up to the site which hold's my account.

So now I own a video which could possibly be as rare as hen's teeth, if nothing else it will be my party piece among the live poker community.

Ps. would love to know if anyone else has a similar video.


why dont you post the video. i would certainly be interested in. seeing that.


by donjonnie P

why dont you post the video.

i guess he had 67 and the board came A89xx


Like the thing I'm saying is on this site whenever you're in a hand with someone they always have it. I just don't know how it's possible. For example I have played over 400,000 hands on global poker and I would say overall you run into streaks of course where somebody is hitting a ton of hands but overall I would say it's a pretty decent mix of sometime they have it sometime they're bluffing. On ignition poker they have it every single time which I find truly impossible to be backed up with numbers. I mean every time you have the King high flush they have the asai flush. It's not once in awhile it's every time and of course I'm talking about pot limit Omaha here. But this is where I just don't buy the we have a 100% random deal thing. But this is where I'm saying maybe some of the problems people are experiencing are not bots and maybe it's just the deal of the cards on this particular site. And to be clear I'm saying the same thing happens with me I have the stone nuts and the other guy always has the second nuts. It just doesn't seem realistic to me


by jungmit P

Like the thing I'm saying is on this site whenever you're in a hand with someone they always have it. I just don't know how it's possible. For example I have played over 400,000 hands on global poker and I would say overall you run into streaks of course where somebody is hitting a ton of hands but overall I would say it's a pretty decent mix of sometime they have it sometime they're bluffing. On ignition poker they have it every single tim

I have played like a million hands on ignition and I have no idea what you are talking about regarding specifically this issue


Jungmit, I literally remember you posting 15 years ago the exact same "rigged" stuff as you're doing now. It raises so many questions.


by pontylad P

Jungmit, I literally remember you posting 15 years ago the exact same "rigged" stuff as you're doing now. It raises so many questions.

But that's the thing. I'm not saying it's rigged. I'm saying maybe it's dealt in the nature that is going to keep the game more even so winners will have a smaller win rate. Maybe it's not really anything to do with bots. I'm just raising a question because this is the only site that I play that I have questions about how the cards run out. And I have played many many sites in the past and still play a lot of hands every year. This is the only one I have questions on


by jungmit P

But that's the thing. I'm not saying it's rigged. I'm saying maybe it's dealt in the nature that is going to keep the game more even so winners will have a smaller win rate. Maybe it's not really anything to do with bots. I'm just raising a question because this is the only site that I play that I have questions about how the cards run out. And I have played many many sites in the past and still play a lot of hands every year. This is the o

See I just played a session on there and every single time the board had a pair on it somebody had three of a kind. It is beyond anything that math can compute. Every single time the nuts are out there somebody has it on this site it is virtually impossible to happen. Now tomorrow I will probably have the knots every single time that happens it's just so unlikely. And I'm comparing it to other sites where I've played over a half a million hands and I just don't see it that often. I have played online virtually 355 days a year for probably the last 20 years. I'm telling you this is the only site that I question with the outcomes and the runouts of the hands. I'm not saying it's rigged but I would be willing to bet a lot of money that they are not dealing cards with any type of algorithm that any other site is using. Something is just off with this site


unless you can back this up with actual data, nobody gives a **** that you feel the rng is rigged


by Xenoblade P

unless you can back this up with actual data, nobody gives a **** that you feel the rng is rigged

And even if I do back it up with actual data would you even care then?


by jungmit P

And even if I do back it up with actual data would you even care then?

No so can you please shut the hell up?


Isn’t there a special place on 2 + 2 for all the online poker rigtards to post their conspiracy theories?


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