Israel/Palestine thread

Actually, I think IF this whole thing had started because Ukraine invaded Russia, killed 1000, took 200 more hostage, and fired 20,000 rockets at Moscow the Western world would be much more sympathetic to Russian belligerence.

But since Ukraine did none of this, and Putin is instead just trying to create a new Russian empire with himself as czar (as he has repeatedly said is the goal), there is little sympathy to Russian belligerence.

2 years into the war, Russia just started making a concerted effort to attack the power infrastructure. Israel did that on day 1. and wake me up when Russia takes out even 1% of the hospitals in Ukraine. the situations are not analogous.

Considering Hezbollah is an official part of the Lebanese govt, and are attacking Israel to the point Israel has had to evacuate entire cities, it takes a particular level of cognitive jui jitsu to declare Lebanon is at peace with Israel. Although the fact you can say this indicates just how remarkably restrained Israel is.

Yes, remarkably well

Wikipedia
The ongoing humanitarian crisis and conflict has received widespread criticism for having a dramatic worsening effect on Yemen's humanitarian situation, that some say has reached the level of a "humanitarian disaster".[28] Yemen is one of the least developed countries in the world,[29] facing significant obstacles to sustainable development,[30] and is one of the poorest countries in the Middle East and North Africa region.[31] In 2019, the United Nations reported that Yemen had the highest number of people in need of humanitarian aid, amounting to about 24 million individuals, which is nearly 75% of its population.[32] As of 2020, Yemen ranked highest on the Fragile States Index[33] and second-worst on the Global Hunger Index, surpassed only by the Central African Republic.[33] Additionally, it has the lowest Human Development Index out of all non-African countries.

right, they just spent 2 years getting double teamed by the USA and Saudi Arabia and are still a country. a country that has caused all kinds of trouble for global shipping.

its almost like Imperialism and colonialism stunts the growth of a country. bc for decades prior, the Brits were in their stealing all their resources and oppressing the residents.

Seems like Yemen has been on a steady downward trajectory since they genocided all their Jews. Seems most of the countries that genocided all their Jews aren't doing so well. Maybe some kind of lesson there too.

Yeah, great country. Shining beacon on the hill. At or near the bottom of every economic and progressive social benchmark, and they literally have widespread slavery, and Victor says they are doing remarkably well.

Yemen is considered a developing country, and has been in a state of political crisis since 2011. It was reported that at least 85,000 people were enslaved in Yemen in 2022, and due to the impossibility of conducting further surveys in the midst of the ongoing civil war, this number may be underestimated.

Germany is doing great. they are on to full on support of the next genocide while arresting any Jew that opposes it.

USA is trying to prevent a larger war. They are doing that by ensuring Israel has enough to destroy any country that escalates with them, the only form of deterrence which is respected in this area of the world. If Hezbollah were to sense that Israel is weak then they would escalate. Israel's response to their attacks are what prevents the escalation. It's a messed up situation.

Biden, and especially Sullivan, are extremely risk averse. The riskier play here is to not arm Israel. You seem to acknowledge this with your talk about how Israel are hate filled Nazis or whatever. Not arming Israel is an all in gamble which attempts to put them in a position where they can't attack Rafah due to the risk that others in the region pose. The "hate filled Nazis" crowd wants to have their cake and eat it too by claiming that Israel just wants to kill, but also that they wouldn't continue killing due to their aversion to risk. Israel absolutely would still go into Rafah. The great irony here is that Israel is going to continue getting the arms they already paid for and are already in production, but they might not get the precision munitions which will be increasingly important as they go into a city holding 5x the population it should.

Russia attacked Ukrainian infrastructure for 5 months in an attempt to freeze Ukraine into submission. The current campaign is their second major attempt at this, not the first. There are multiple reasons they did not begin the war in this manner, including the fact that Russia thought they would quickly conquer Ukraine so they wanted the infrastructure intact.

Time to wake up. WHO says Russia has attacked Ukrainian healthcare facilities over 1000 times... that they've verified.

Some of the smartest people in the world know it’s a genocide.

US doesn’t care about a war. US govt is trying to get Biden re-elected. That’s all that matters

Viva Deutschland!

I dont think Israel goes into Rafah or Lebanon if the USA cut off its flow of weapons.

the rest of your nonsense about precision weapons is not at all in line with reality and has been debunked many times.

at this point it is completely ludicrous to act like the civilians are not the specific targets of this campaign. but we know that there is no level of Western depravity that you will not find a way to support.

Well bloodthirsty nazis would still go into Rafah (no idea who is saying they plan to go into Lebanon, they're clearly trying to avoid that) so you better cut out that language.

You don't understand the precision weapons argument to even begin debunking it, so no, that's not true. You've posted several times proving that precision weapons save lives when compared to the large bombs, but fail to understand it.

I do not support Israel going into Rafah, I have made that clear. I do support giving food to starving civilians, which you seem to be against. I also support limiting civilian casualties as much as possible if Israel is going to go into Rafah (they're going into Rafah no matter what) which you seem to disapprove of. I also am against imperialist conquests and genocide, which you seem to support, or at least take every opportunity possible to call the victims of it nazis and otherwise dehumanize them. Depraved.

It's obvious why people find the 'nazi' language inflammatory but it's 2023 and WWII ended almost 70 years ago. Semantic drift happens a lot faster than that. Nazi nowadays just means 'people doing bad stuff especially if it involves taking rights (or life) away from other people". So Victor's use of 'nazi' within that context is perfectly acceptable.

You guys will just have to deal with it.

again, your ideas just dont reflect reality. giving Israel more bombs, precision or otherwise, is not going to save lives.

but at least now you dont support this invasion so you arent completely blind like back in Oct.

2023 allows to compare actions to Nazism yes, but what's not allowed is to call Nazis the very people who the Nazis genocides, and it should be for at least a couple of centuries as a minimum.

Nazism wasn't even by far the worst genocidal regime, so it's not inappropriate to call many other events nazi-like, what's not appropriate is to call Jews Nazis.

The most genocidal regime in history domestically (genocide against people living on your land) was AFTER Nazism and was the Cambodian Marxist one by far (as a % of the population killed), and even if many people think the opposite, going after your own is actually a lot worse than going after a clearly identifiable outgroup.

Yet calling someone a Marxist, or a maoist, or a stalinist, or a red Khmer, only have vague negative connotations (and not even for everyone) and people get angrier if you call them Nazis (even if Nazism was objectively far less worse than the above).

But again it's a totally different story if you call a Jew a Nazi. That's like saying "the nazists should have genocided you and the world would be better".

Using Nazi appellatives toward Jews is genocidal inherently.

Well, it actually means "people I dont like doing bad stuff" as most people who are quick to resort to "Nazi" rhetoric are pretty agnostic towards people they do like doing bad stuff (See Russia, Houthis).

But just to show how the meaning of the word is completely evolved to be mostly meaningless, Victor and others of his ilk constantly call Jews Nazis, while calling actually Nazis 'based' and supporting their atrocities.

Ofc the Biden admin tries to win the election, but there is also some medium - long term reasoning among democrats more broadly.

Elections aren't a game played only once.

Not sure how much democrats want to make pro-Israel people their mortal enemies for a generation, especially when the GOP is explicitly on sale and blatantly ready to take donations and give a complete blank to Israel militarily if the democrats position themselves on your or victor policy stances.

We are talking hundreds of millions per election cycle + a well oiled PR/media machine being directed against you every two year for a generation+ if you start talking like victor , for the Democratic party.

If someone calls a Jew a Nazi, it literally means "they should have genocides your ancestors I am sad they didn't".

It's not like calling a random radical rightwing person a Nazi. If a radical rightwing person is antisemite and you call him a nazi, that's actually proper.

Calling Jews Nazis, to justify a war nonetheless, is to side with Nazism itself at its core, it's genocidal and terroristical

They know full well what they're doing. The creepier part is pretending to not know. I'd respect it if they owned it better.

I think even more important, pro Israel people are extremely high human capital. Antisemites are mostly very low human capital (there is just A LOT of them). It would be a horrible trade-off for the Democratic Party, and the Western World as a whole, to completely abandon Israel to appease the antisemitic world.

But make no mistake, high human capital pro Israel people have zero appetite for the Republican war on reproductive health. But IF the Republican Party of Florida and DeSantis were to stop doing this (which it appears they have no interest in) there could be a giant shift in human capital from the Democratic Northeast to Florida if the Democrat Party goes too far in appeasing antisemites and pushing other unpopular social policies, like equity.

The actual Nazis are still the one's who have the trademark on genocide-- regardless of the fact that other groups (as per Luciom's point) did it more recently or better. So while your point here I don't think is entirely without some merit, it's the genocide that is driving the nazi claims not the fact that it's Jews.

GOP is trapped in the most basic of the conundrums regarding primaries wrt abortion, same as democrats were until recently with absurd defund the police/don't prosecute criminals extremism.

They need to touch the bottom of the barrel to change, like San Francisco is doing now with some sanity coming back wrt law enforcement.

In some places they touched the bottom (see Kansas 60-40 referendum), we'll see if republicans in September/October will run on extreme abortion positions or not. My gut tells me they mostly won't outside of some extremists in safe seats. But we'll see

there is no shortage of Jewish people who survived the holocaust or the ancestors of them making this exact comparison.

comparison is the way we understand the world.

https://www.nplusonemag.com/online-only/...