Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
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5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
Israel committing genocide is wrong. Genocide is bad.
There was probably a Nazi or Nazi aligned folks in Palestine and they could have provoked genocide by cozying up to Iran, so Israel's justified?
Israel isn't committing any genocide as there is no attempt to exterminate all Palestinians.
that said, more than half of the resident in Gaza still support Hamas, not sure what you mean with nazis, but that's literally more than half of the population being a fair target in a war.
and there is a portion of people who don't support Hamas only because it is failing, not because they don't agree with Hamas attempt to genocide the Jews. which is why support in the west bank is at like 80%
Israel isn't committing any genocide as there is no attempt to exterminate all Palestinians.
that said, more than half of the resident in Gaza still support Hamas, not sure what you mean with nazis, but that's literally more than half of the population being a fair target in a war.
and there is a portion of people who don't support Hamas only because it is failing, not because they don't agree with Hamas attempt to genocide the Jews. which is
80% of all Palestinians have been displaced. They weren't allowing food or aid in. They target international aid workers. They target medical facilities. They target infrastructure.
I can't imagine how you define genocide if Israel isn't doing it or how you can claim they aren't attempting to kill all Palestinians. It seems like they're trying to kill a superset of that including anyone who's in Palestine, not only Palestinians. 40% of the people killed are children.
What more would make it genocide?
80% of all Palestinians have been displaced. They weren't allowing food or aid in. They target international aid workers. They target medical facilities. They target infrastructure.
I can't imagine how you define genocide if Israel isn't doing it or how you can claim they aren't attempting to kill all Palestinians. It seems like they're trying to kill a superset of that including anyone who's in Palestine, not only Palestinians. 40% of the
80% of all *gazeans have been displaced, not of all Palestinians.
they target everything which is connected to Hamas, and rightly so. they are attempting to eradicate Hamas not a genocide.
to start, if they were attempting a genocide they would have blockaded the west bank the dame they do in Gaza, and carpet bombed all of the west bank, as that's full of Palestinians as well.
as for the "40% children", when half of the population is under 18, half of the collateral damage, of the civilian killed (which always die in any war in urban setting) will be children necessarily
80% of all *gazeans have been displaced, not of all Palestinians.
they target everything which is connected to Hamas, and rightly so. they are attempting to eradicate Hamas not a genocide.
to start, if they were attempting a genocide they would have blockaded the west bank the dame they do in Gaza, and carpet bombed all of the west bank, as that's full of Palestinians as well.
as for the "40% children", when half of the population is under 18,
You have described yourself numerous times as someone who views some groups of humans are inherently better than others.
...
It's possible to kill more people, faster, so not genocide?
80% of all *gazeans have been displaced, not of all Palestinians.
they target everything which is connected to Hamas, and rightly so. they are attempting to eradicate Hamas not a genocide.
to start, if they were attempting a genocide they would have blockaded the west bank the dame they do in Gaza, and carpet bombed all of the west bank, as that's full of Palestinians as well.
as for the "40% children", when half of the population is under 18,
lol
we have heard from multiple Israeli sources that they target all fighting age males and employ kill zones.
and ofc we have the 972 AI article where 20:1 civilian death tolls are acceptable for a low level Hamas member and 300:1 for high level.
You have described yourself numerous times as someone who views some groups of humans are inherently better than others.
This is true of the vast majority of humans who ever lived, including in the present. True universalists are exceptionally rare. Maybe some missionaries and a few other people like that actually disagree with the bold, but everyone in this forum clearly agrees, they just have different groups in mind than i do.
for example everyone heavily criticizing Israel in this thread views Israeli who agree with their government about current IDF actions as an inherently worse human group than many other human groups.
So why do you cite that element i , yes, described about myself, and which is almost universal among human beings in history, and in the present, as something that matters here or anywhere?
lol
we have heard from multiple Israeli sources that they target all fighting age males and employ kill zones.
and ofc we have the 972 AI article where 20:1 civilian death tolls are acceptable for a low level Hamas member and 300:1 for high level.
Well we are between 5 and 1.5 to 1 depending on which source for hamas deaths you want to believe currently, so i am not sure what you mean.
That ration, even taking the 5:1, is lower than almost all war in urban settings scenarios in history.
Israel doesn't target "all fighting age males", he prioritizes them when checking for hamas members obviously.
And btw, yet again here you are mixing 2 opposite anti-Israel narratives. You at the same time claim civilian deaths are mostly women and children, yet Israeli "targets all fighting age males" lol.
If they targeted all fighting age males why are most of them still alive in gaza?????
Killing 18-25k civilians to kill 6-14k hamas enemy combatants isn't genocide according to any definition of genocide.
Genocide doesn't mean "killing a lot of people". It requires the *intent* of eradicating a nation, a group of people.
How do you judge intent? by judging what your capabilities are, and what you achieve. If i want to prove intent to genocide the palestinians , and they could kill a ton more of them easier, and they don't, that disproves intent which disproves genocide.
While hamas genocidal intent is actually 1) officially stated by them in their charter 2) officially stated by their financial supporter (iran) 3) clear in their terrorist attacks.
Unlike the IDF , hamas kills as many jews as it can at every occasion. That they often can't kill many doesn't disprove genocidal intent. You simply go and check how many they kill given how many they could kill. On 10 7 they didn't restrain in any way. They killed/took hostage literally everyone they could. That's strongly aligned with genocidal intent.
IDF could reduce the food entering in gaza at a *full 0*. That would be clearly genocidal. Instead we are at approx -70% trucks entering, which basically means all the non-food, non-medical supplies hamas used to build tunnels aren't entering anymore, while food is entering gaza almost the same as before.
There are distributional problems inside gaza in some areas but that's a different matter.
If Israel wanted to genocide the gazeans, they would have blocked *ALL FOOD*. That would have been the end of gaza months ago.
How can you claim genocidal intent when it was easy for Israel to actually kill each and every one of them, but they didn't?
Well we are between 5 and 1.5 to 1 depending on which source for hamas deaths you want to believe currently, so i am not sure what you mean.
That ration, even taking the 5:1, is lower than almost all war in urban settings scenarios in history.
Israel doesn't target "all fighting age males", he prioritizes them when checking for hamas members obviously.
And btw, yet again here you are mixing 2 opposite anti-Israel narratives. You at the same ti
I dont believe any source that puts it at 5:1.
yes ofc they target all fighting age men. thats been reported on Haaretz and even CNN.
I dont believe any source that puts it at 5:1.
yes ofc they target all fighting age men. thats been reported on Haaretz and even CNN.
that would be hamas, claiming 6k hamas losses among 33k deaths.
I don't know if english is your native language, but targeting all fighting age men would mean you wouldn't have any more fighting age men left , as they can kill them all if they want to.
So no, they aren't targeting all of them, otherwise they would all be dead already.
no, they couldnt kill them all. just bc they can target them doesnt mean they do. but some groups do, as we saw with the aid people.
Hamas does not release casualty numbers btw, so I think you got some fake news.
no, they couldnt kill them all. just bc they can target them doesnt mean they do. but some groups do, as we saw with the aid people.
Hamas does not release casualty numbers btw, so I think you got some fake news.
so they "can" target them, but they don't lol.
Lol at the bold (this was on feb 19)
A Hamas official based in Qatar told Reuters that the group estimated it had lost 6,000 fighters during the four-month-old conflict, half the 12,000 Israel says it has killed.
Yes they don't have enough bombs and snipers to murder every man they are.
I don't put a lot of faith in anonymous leaks from Qatar.
I also think the death totals are far higher than 30k something. I've seen estimates at 100k from the Israeli press.
Israel isn't committing any genocide as there is no attempt to exterminate all Palestinians.
that said, more than half of the resident in Gaza still support Hamas, not sure what you mean with nazis, but that's literally more than half of the population being a fair target in a war.
and there is a portion of people who don't support Hamas only because it is failing, not because they don't agree with Hamas attempt to genocide the Jews. which is
Where do you get your definition of "fair target"? Answers on opinion polls don't turn civilians into enemy combatants. Imagine if that standard were used against you with your opinions about who should be shot in the Mediterranean. Are you a combatant because of your opinions?
Even with all the civilian bombing in WW2, before Geneva, did anyone even try to claim that civilians were "fair targets" based on their opinions?
Even with all the civilian bombing in WW2, before Geneva, did anyone even try to claim that civilians were "fair targets" based on their opinions?
Well, in this thread a few posters argue all Israeli civilians are fair targets, because they were conscripted for a couple years when they were 18, making them "military."
Well, in this thread a few posters argue all Israeli civilians are fair targets, because they were conscripted for a couple years when they were 18, making them "military."
no, some people are just wondering about consistency. surely, if someone has ever been in Hamas's military wing then you consider them a fair target. or even if they are in the police, fire, civil works, etc, then are they not a legit target in your mind?
there were countless stories on Oct 7th of Israelis defending themselves and their communities, heroically for sure. in many of the stories weapons were distributed from the armories. one of them fully stopped the Hamas invaders. but wouldnt those people be legitimate targets?
Civilians as fair “targets” is insane.
Genocide doesn't mean "killing a lot of people". It requires the *intent* of eradicating a nation, a group of people.
How do you judge intent? by judging what your capabilities are, and what you achieve. If i want to prove intent to genocide the palestinians , and they could kill a ton more of them easier, and they don't, that disproves intent which disproves genocide.
The existing law on genocide doesn't work like that. The indiscriminate and continuous destruction of persons and habitat without military justification, combined with what looks suspiciously like deliberate and murderous prevention of aid supplies to enforce a starvation policy, in territory controlled by the aggressor, could come under the heading of attempted genocide.
The existing law on genocide doesn't work like that. The indiscriminate and continuous destruction of persons and habitat without military justification, combined with what looks suspiciously like deliberate and murderous prevention of aid supplies to enforce a starvation policy, in territory controlled by the aggressor, could come under the heading of attempted genocide.
lucium is fascist tho, so genocide is proper and legal against people he doesnt like.
anyway, the media is always a few months late but as I have been saying, Israel are the only ones who burn others alive. Gazans and Israelis.
War sucks. That is why it is important to deal with Islamist maniacs like Hamas and ISIS, to minimize the number of wars they cause and amount of civilians they target, so we dont have to have conversations like this.
It is actually pretty wild how much intentional slaughter of civilians takes place daily by Islamists, and how agnostic we all are over it. If any of you (and more generally all the people moralizing over Gazan "genocide") had any moral integrity and first principles at all*, this should be the first thing everyone in the world is talking about when they wake up everyday.
**I acknowledge that you (Microbet) acknowledge there is evil in the world going on outside of Israel, and you wish the world cared more. But pretty much every other faux moralist in this thread (special shout out to Victor and Pointless) is at best agnostic over all the indiscriminate slaughter carried out by Islamists on a daily basis, demonstrated zero moral integrity or first principles.
