Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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presumably they would if it were there sons daughters parents grandparents.
also, its not really analogous as they families of Hamas face certain death by targeting. Hamas doesnt kill hostages for the lols like Israel does.
I'm sure the Hamas leadership cares about Gazans every bit as much as LBJ or Nixon cared about the people they sent to Vietnam.
The Hamas leaders won't have trouble getting nice things as long as they hold the guns in Gaza. Iranians and Plastinean sympathizers (wittingly or not) will make sure of that.
This was a house in Gaza:
The people who lived there could go to this mall to buy nice stuff:
It's going to be a long time before anyone there gets this life again.
I'm sure the Hamas leadership cares about Gazans every bit as much as LBJ or Nixon cared about the people they sent to Vietnam.
maybe for the top guys but as you get to the next levels their families are the targets.
I dont buy into the trope that Hamas is benefiting from their friends and family being murdered and are strategically allowing it.
Interesting pics from the Warsaw Ghetto imprisonment camp.
vic cannot be happy with that development
If anything it implies the opposite.
Tankies: the resistance had to murder innocent concert-goers, since Gaza is the Warsaw ghetto. They are heroes.
Sane people: life in Gaza was not like the Warsaw ghetto and far better before hamas conducted Oct 7.
This was a house in Gaza:
The people who lived there could go to this mall to buy nice stuff:
It's going to be a long time before anyone there gets this life again.
Hamas leader's families were smuggled into Egypt through Rafah tunnels a long time ago. For all we know so has most of the top leadership. When was the last time there was a confirmed sighting of Sinwar in Gaza?
No one left in Gaza is going to be living that life again anytime soon; but most of the Hamas top leadership and their families will be doing fine, just not in Gaza.
If anything it implies the opposite.
Tankies: the resistance had to murder innocent concert-goers, since Gaza is the Warsaw ghetto. They are heroes.
Sane people: life in Gaza was not like the Warsaw ghetto and far better before hamas conducted Oct 7.
yes life was better before Israel decided to do genocide. it wasnt good though. how are you this misinformed? skim a wikipedia or something.
and you really should look into who murders more innocent people and who shows infinitely more restraint.
Hamas cares about their family and friends and neighbors. to argue otherwise is racism meant to dehumanize them.
In fairness, I think we should accept that Islamists like Hamas members sincerely believe that dying in the struggle against the Yahood is a ticket to paradise. So they can care deeply about the Gaza populace AND be perfectly ok with them dying for Jihad.
life in Gaza was not as bad as the Warsaw Ghetto so they should just suck it up and accept being ruthlessly blockaded, kept on a diet, monitored at every moment by drones, murdered en masse every couple years, withheld medical care.
like seriously, what is wrong with you?
no, you should not take up arms to protect yourself and fight for freedom unless you are living in the literal Warsaw Ghetto.
unless you live in Ukraine at any time.
-an American liberal
hamas isn't a race, just a terrorist organization (which deserves eradication, ie the killing of each and every one of its members).
they dehumanize themselves by being terrorists.
and if we were healthy societies we would go after everyone in our societies who favours Hamas as well.
What past and or present resistances do you support
More restraint lol. The pretense of it all
And all for land that isn't theirs
Agreed. So stop defending the terrorist act that was meant to provoke that reaction.
it wasnt good though. how are you this misinformed? skim a wikipedia or something.
Please show me where I said it was good. I've said that comparing life in Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto is grotesque. It is. Skim a wikipedia or something.
and you really should look into who murders more innocent people and who shows infinitely more restraint.
One side being less awful than the other, doesn't make them right. Even if Hamas does show more restraint (they don't), they should not be celebrated and cheered on.
Damn... between the "Hamas produces most of their weapons" nonsense and this... Victor just loses it when facts prove him wrong. I'm learning a lot about the stances I apparently have but wasn't aware of until now.
But the IDF has 2 things:
1) Rules of engagement and actual outcomes for people who make mistakes in that regard. It's not perfect, but it EXISTS.
Enough with the most moral army in the world argument. This is the army that chops the limbs off Gaza detainees.
IDF doctor: "a routine event."
life in Gaza was not as bad as the Warsaw Ghetto so they should just suck it up and accept being ruthlessly blockaded, kept on a diet, monitored at every moment by drones, murdered en masse every couple years, withheld medical care.
like seriously, what is wrong with you?
Due to white guilt, no matter how bad they have behaved the Gaza citizens have had numerous chances to dramatically improve their situation, and will probably have numerous more. But they will have to give up the dream of conquering Israel. And they have consistently chosen Jihad over peace. Fair enough.
However, now that Israel has decided it will no longer allow the Gaza people to be rewarded for bad behavior (by restraint from them and billions in aid from the West) and instead Gaza will be destroyed in response to provocation; it will be interesting to see if changing the incentive dynamic will change the attitude of the Gaza people.
It is one thing to do a cross border raid to murder hundreds and take hostages thinking you are going to get a 100:1 hostage/prisoner exchange down the road and billions in aid in response. It is another knowing your entire proto-state will be destroyed on top. Definitely changes the incentive structure.
So it's an exercise in determining where on the civility-spectrum we're to place these 2 cultures. Once we solve relative cultural civility, we'll be in good shape. Proportional civility in the face of inconceivable barbarism.
Everyone take the rest of the night off
Agreed. So stop defending the terrorist act that was meant to provoke that reaction.
Please show me where I said it was good. I've said that comparing life in Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto is grotesque. It is. Skim a wikipedia or something.
One side being less awful than the other, doesn't make them right. Even if Hamas does show more restraint (they don't), they should not be celebrated and cheered on.
it was not meant to provoke this reaction. do you understand how disgusting you sound? like, why would ever think this was something that Hamas wanted?
comparison is how we know the world. read the Masha Gessen article. you remember her? she is anti-Putin and the libs loved her until well, this.
they do show more restraint. you are simply misinformed and willfully brainwashed. Hamas is not torturing people, burning people alive, raping, murdering children. there are countless videos of the Resistance not shooting at easy helicopter medivac targets. Israel loves nothing more than to murder doctors and nurses and paramedics.
If explaining the actions of the people you support to you disgusts you, then you should reassess the people you support, not attack me for informing you. Hamas's actions are disgusting, my interpretation of them is not. Hamas hoped to provoke a major reaction from Israel with their terrorist attack. Maybe it wasn't meant to be as severe as this, but they knew damn well that by conducting October 7 they were going to be directly responsible for a reprisal that would lead to the deaths of many Palestinians and the destructions of their homes. Even if they did not, they planned and murdered over a thousand innocent people. Your insistence that they have a strong respect for life is absurd.
Warsaw Ghetto to pre October 7 Gaza is a poor comparison, which draws some absolutely vile conclusions such as justification for October 7, as we've seen ITT.
You are confusing constraint with results. If a magic button flipped on October 7 and Hamas and Israel switched military capabilities then you'd be seeing far more Israeli causalties. Hamas is torturing people btw. They are being held captive, or likely dead already, and some of them are children. (This is all a strawman and has little to do with my assertion that pre-Oct 7 Gaza was not the Warsaw Ghetto.)
None of this is a defense of Israel's reaction.
