Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
If an organization has to use terror to survive then that should tell you what kind of an organization they are. I do not defend terrorist organizations. Why do you?
If they weren't a terrorist organization reliant on terror to survive then you're begging the question. Why?
Non-state actors are always called terrorists by whatever states they are fighting against. This is true for the Irgun, the ANC as Victor mentioned, and the British Parliament even declared Ghandi a terrorist in 1932. George Washington was a terrorist. Marxists call the Kronstadt Rebellion terrorism. You can't seriously just say something like "terror bad" and other kinds of violence good when it's a matter of perspective and obviously the word "terrorism" begs the question (using the correct definition of that expression).
Terror bad.
You'll notice in that conversation I specifically said that Hamas was not monolithic and the elements not engaging in terror should be excluded. I said nothing about dismantling all of Hamas or labeling all of it as a terrorist organization.
The elements that engaged in terrorism, October 7, should be correctly identified as terrorists. Terror bad. Would you like to argue "Terror not bad" instead of a semantics argument against a position I never took?
Terror bad
Occupation is worse than terror
Terror is worse than occupation
Terror is the same as occupation
Wonder which one BGP believes ?
I don't believe any of them...
What point do you think you're making?
Stop with the idiotic multiple-choice
I said take the rest of the night off
Terror bad.
You'll notice in that conversation I specifically said that Hamas was not monolithic and the elements not engaging in terror should be excluded. I said nothing about dismantling all of Hamas or labeling all of it as a terrorist organization.
The elements that engaged in terrorism, October 7, should be correctly identified as terrorists. Terror bad. Would you like to argue "Terror not bad" instead of a semantics argument against a
You're the one playing word games though you don't seem to be able to recognize it.
If you think all the Israeli soldiers killing civilians should also be punished then you're just saying killing civilians is bad. What else is necessary for your definition of "terrorism"? Is it necessary that it's by a non-state actor?
Also, you should really answer Victor's question about Nelson Mandela.
I expect just about everyone here who is not a complete pacifist could at least imagine that if they grew up in Gaza, they would fight against Israel. That should really give people pause who think Gazans are villainous for fighting or for supporting people who do.
I am not playing word games. I have been very exact with my language. If you're going to make an accusation then at least back it up.
If you think all the Israeli soldiers killing civilians should also be punished then you're just saying killing civilians is bad. What else is necessary for your definition of "terrorism"? Is it necessary that it's by a non-state actor?
"the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." is a pretty good start. No it is not necessary that it is by a non-state actor.
Also, you should really answer Victor's question about Nelson Mandela.
He didn't ask one. And it was another one of his attempts to avoid the actual topic. Also we've discussed him before in the Ukraine thread.
I am not playing word games. I have been very exact with my language. If you're going to make an accusation then at least back it up.
You're not very good at definitions. It's pretty weird to call anything I've said an "accusation".
"the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." is a pretty good start. No it is not necessary that it is by a non-state actor.
Then the Israel is clearly, and has clearly for some time, been committing terrorism in Gaza. It's even unlawful, even though that is a dumb part of the definition. It absolutely begs the question.
He didn't ask one. And it was another one of his attempts to avoid the actual topic. Also we've discussed him before in the Ukraine thread.
Well, what did you say? because I don't see how you aren't also calling him a terrorist along with most of the ANC.
Terror bad
Occupation is worse than terror
Terror is worse than occupation
Terror is the same as occupation
Wonder which one BGP believes ?
I am not playing word games. I have been very exact with my language. If you're going to make an accusation then at least back it up.
"the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." is a pretty good start. No it is not necessary that it is by a non-state actor.
He didn't ask one. And it was another one of his attempts to avoid the actual topic. Also we've discussed him before in
You’re using your own definition of terrorism. I’m trying to get an understanding of where you place it relative to occupation. You refuse to answer, which is of course an answer in itself.
By saying you don’t believe any of them that means you don’t believe terrorism is real. Is that true?
You're not very good at definitions. It's pretty weird to call anything I've said an "accusation".
accuse:
'claim that (someone) has done something wrong. "he was accused of favouritism"'
You accused me of playing word games, which you are now doing yourself... pretty weird.
Then the Israel is clearly, and has clearly for some time, been committing terrorism in Gaza. It's even unlawful, even though that is a dumb part of the definition. It absolutely begs the question.
If I state that Hamas conducted a terrorist attack on October 7, does this have anything to do with whether or not Israel is now committing terrorism in Gaza? What point are you trying to make here?
Well, what did you say? because I don't see how you aren't also calling him a terrorist along with most of the ANC.
This has turned into a lot of posts attacking me, and looking for some way to trick me into say something that you all can jump on and attack. I'm not going to derail it even more by looking at Nelson Mandela. I have put forward my arguments, very clearly and with no word games. Feel free to attack those arguments and continue the conversation instead of the arguments which have been invented for me, or finding something completely unrelated to attack me with.
pre-Oct 7 Gaza was not the Warsaw Ghetto
Hamas knew Israel would respond to their terrorist attack by killing Palestinians and destroying Palestinian homes
Those are the arguments. We don't need to get into Nelson Mandela, especially after the nonsense I just endured on the last two pages.
Bluegrass,
I know a lot of posts get deleted around here so maybe that's what happened, but I don't find any posts where you've ever typed "mandela" outside of the last couple in this thread and none from Victor in the Ukraine thread. Have you ever answered the question?
PW: that is the Oxford Languages definition of terrorism...
Once again he did not ask a question, but yes we had a long back and forth about it. 13k+ posts were deleted when the Ukraine thread was deleted. The conversation went nowhere. I suspect bringing Mandela up here would go nowhere as well.
The two very simple statements I put forward which express my views clearly and succinctly do a lot more to explain how I feel.
accuse:
'claim that (someone) has done something wrong. "he was accused of favouritism"'
You accused me of playing word games, which you are now doing yourself... pretty weird.
That is weird. Some accusation that was. OMG, I accused you of playing word games. Yeah, weird. I'm not accusing you of something wrong, it's more that I don't think you understand what you're doing.
If I state that Hamas conducted a terrorist attack on October 7, does this have anything to do with whether or not Israel is now committing terrorism in Gaza? What point are you trying to make here?
My point obviously is that you're begging the question when you say "terrorism". Figuring out what you do and do not identify as "terrorism" is absolutely germane to my point.
This has turned into a lot of posts attacking me, and looking for some way to trick me into say something that you all can jump on and attack. I'm not going to derail it even more by looking at Nelson Mandela. I have put forward my arguments, very clearly and with no word games. Feel free to attack those arguments and continue the conversation instead of the arguments which have been invented for me, or finding something completely unrelate
Holy **** you're being dramatic.
pre-Oct 7 Gaza was not the Warsaw Ghetto
Hamas knew Israel would respond to their terrorist attack by killing Palestinians and destroying Palestinian homes
Those are the arguments. We don't need to get into Nelson Mandela, especially after the nonsense I just endured on the last two pages.
I wasn't talking about these things. I was talking about how meaningful or not it is when you use the word "terrorism".
there seems to be some confusion in here this morning
if you and three thousand of your mates wake up one day and go rape and kill hundreds of dance party attendees then you are a terrorist, your mates are terrorists, and the organisation which you all belong to is a terrorist organisation
is that now clear
Once again he did not ask a question, but yes we had a long back and forth about it. 13k+ posts were deleted when the Ukraine thread was deleted. The conversation went nowhere. I suspect bringing Mandela up here would go nowhere as well.
The two very simple statements I put forward which express my views clearly and succinctly do a lot more to explain how I feel.
It would be a lot shorter if you just answered the question.
That is weird. Some accusation that was. OMG, I accused you of playing word games. Yeah, weird. I'm not accusing you of something wrong, it's more that I don't think you understand what you're doing.
I invited you to point it out, instead you chose to play word games.
My point obviously is that you're begging the question when you say "terrorism". Figuring out what you do and do not identify as "terrorism" is absolutely germane to my point.
I do not know exactly where I draw the line for "terrorism", but I do know that October 7 is well past that line. If you want to find out the exact line where I think something is and isn't terrorism then you're probably... playing word games.
Holy **** you're being dramatic.
No. Not really. You can read through the last few pages and see it.
I wasn't talking about these things. I was talking about how meaningful or not it is when you use the word "terrorism".
Well this is the "conversation" you jumped into. If you want to judge how meaningful my use of the word "terrorism" is then you'll have to do that without knowing my thoughts on Nelson Mandela apparently.
there seems to be some confusion in here this morning
if you and three thousand of your mates wake up one day and go rape and kill hundreds of dance party attendees then you are a terrorist, your mates are terrorists, and the organisation which you all belong to is a terrorist organisation
is that now clear
I really doubt it is clear.
I mean FFS the word terror is not even important in the sentence microbet is complaining about.
If calling murdering almost 700 concert goers "terrorism" is too divisive then we can just omit it.
If an organization has to use terror to survive then that should tell you what kind of an organization they are. I do not defend terrorist organizations. Why do you?
If they weren't a terrorist organization reliant on terror to survive then you're begging the question. Why?
"If an organization has to murder almost 700 concert goers in order to survive then that should tell you what kind of an organization they are. I do not defend such organizations."
If there's any further disagreement with how this is phrased, feel free to put in your own wording as long as it is truthful. I believe the point I am making here is quite clear. Feel free to continue on with the conversation and point out why you agree or disagree with this statement.
I expect just about everyone here who is not a complete pacifist could at least imagine that if they grew up in Gaza, they would fight against Israel. That should really give people pause who think Gazans are villainous for fighting or for supporting people who do.
Zero respect for their 'motivation.' I don't buy what you're sellin.
There's no society on earth immune to the fracturing that can happen. Lol as if the Palestinians would be some beacon of light, a Muslim brotherhood / sister-in-hood
MAGA is posturing like they want to get down over lizard people and trannies. That's par for the course
Extrapolate, son lmao
Palestinians are b itches at war with the world around them and like countless others. Jihad the one you're with.
