Israel/Palestine thread

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/e...

if you dont support Israel's right to murder 100s of thousands of Gazan children then you are an antisemite. thats the world we live in.

People can justify the genocide in Gaza with the rationale that Islam sucks, but you can't not call it genocide

Just because Jewish people aren't on the receiving end of genocide doesn't make it not-genocide

And I can't stand for Israel as some beacon of light in the Middle East when they're this belligerent to the point of genocide

according to this thread, this is not genocide. starving a population is not genocide. its only genocide when you kill people as fast as possible with bombs and bullets. ask chillrob and gs.

this is why I have more respect for Dunyain than for corpus or grizy. hes like, yep its genocide and its good. many others in this thread just tell me to not believe my lying eyes.

I get what he was saying. It's just that the "Islam is abhorrent" conversation is a different conversation.

Israel is way past the point of justification. They are just trying to survive in the giant turd bowl of hate, intolerance and racism that is the Arab world. They can of course make different choices on the margins, but fundamentally unless they are willing to be destroyed they cant stop dominating the Palestinian people as long as the Palestinians continue to act this way.

There are a lot more people in the world now than in the past, and they are a lot more concentrated. If you normalize for historical population sizes and density, there is absolutely nothing special about the scale of this conflict. Wars suck generally, and people die. For their part Islamists like Hamas understand this. They know the wars they start and fight are going to result in a lot of death; they just view this as a positive.

Even in absolute terms there have been A LOT of conflicts in recent times that have had much bigger death tolls and displacements. In just the Middle East alone, we can count conflicts in Iran, Iraq, Syria and Yemen on this list.

I think we all have been spoiled just how great Pax Americana has been towards world peace that 30,000 people dying in a 6 month conflict is the big deal that it is (ignoring the part where this happens a lot but no one cares). And if/when Pax Americana fails expect a lot bigger conflicts with a lot larger death tolls (that most people in the world wont care about anyways).

Masha Gesson and others wrote about this. and in fact no we cannot. we have even had this discussion in this thread on at least 2 occasions.

the only genocide that ever happened was against the Jews. and "never again" means that it is worth a genocide of untold millions to protect a single Zionist Jew from feeling uncomfortable (ofc not the self hating who were arrested in Germany today and their ideological ilk).

to disagree with any of this is antisemitism.

I have seen no indication most people (including you Victor) care about genocide at all as a first principle issue; and it is just something to use as a talking point when ideologically convenient. The whole talk around genocide is just so dishonest and devoid of first principle IMO, I just cant take it seriously.

Israel is making rationale decisions for survival given its circumstance. Maybe it is strategically making wrong decisions, and maybe it isn't. But given what they are up against, very rationale and truly not particularly violent.

If anything Israel's restraint has been a problem, incentivizing the Gaza's into believing 10/7 and firing 20,000 missiles at Israel is a good idea. Now that Israel has made it emphatically clear such actions are not a good idea, completely altering the incentive structure for Palestinian belligerence, I think the prospects for peace down the line are actually higher.

War sucks doesn't absolve those responsible for genocide. Your lack of separation between Hamas and everyday people is a problem in your head. Collateral damage and what's happened since 10/7 are completely different concepts. A ground invasion to eliminate Hamas would be completely legitimate, but the blindfolded air strikes were uncalled for. This is terrorism. Israel isn't a democratic state. It's a terror state.

If you wanna deny the rudimentary definition of words, that's totally fine

You're just being willfully incorrect

If you accept the genocide as part of the game, then you're opposing whatever it is you think Israel stands for because, yeah, it's becoming less and less distinguishable from the barbaric Islamists.

All Palestinian people are to blame for the rockets? Is that the hill you're gonna die on?

The first casualty of war is truth. To deny the humanity of everyday people is necessary for you to talk this way and feel fine about it, but it's a denial, nonetheless.

I think Islam is an abomination and even I can't support this ****

Not to mention, again, the blatant disregard for blowback is belligerent

The next 9/11 is gonna cite this massacre by Israel as the motive

I hope we never find out, but I think the entire post WWII ethical boundaries we have decided upon are very contrived and will not be worth the paper they are written on if **** hits the fan. What has happened is we have been fighting a bunch of wars thousands of miles away from where we live, that actually are not that important whether we win or lose, and so we have the luxury of following such contrived ethics.

We know what even the "ethical" Allies did in WWII when they felt it was a war they had to win, and I expect to see similar actions if/when we are ever in that spot again. By your metric I would say every state would be a terror state if the situation is desperate enough; so if you agree with this the real argument is whether Israel's actions are justified by its circumstances.

If you dont think the situation justifies the actions, that is fine. We can agree to disagree. But if you are saying Israel has crossed some absolute threshold that no "ethical" nation would ever cross, I would say you are very naive and mistaken.

I think this is an argument where Victor is correct. Hamas is just the will of the Palestinian people. Getting rid of Hamas does absolutely nothing to move the needle as far as resolving this conflict. The incentive structure for Jihad and violence must be permanently altered. I think what should have happened is UNRWA should have been gotten rid of a long time ago, and the Palestinians either given a choice to live peacefully or emigrate, or no aid. But that didn't happen, so here we are.

I have no clue whether Israel had a better option given the reality of the situation. But I think just allowing the status quo to continue indefinitely and reward the Palestinians indefinitely for their belligerence, obstinance and nihilism would have been a fools errand. And I am more optimistic than most the last 6 months could actually move the needle moving towards a real change in dynamics that could lead towards peace.

Most states are terror states, yes. Would you not agree with this? Isn't this what delegitimizes the U.N. to Zionists?

You're the naive, mistaken one if you thought you got me with that one.

By this logic, it's impossible for Israel to ever act wrongly. Why?

Israelis can leave. I'm for open borders. They can come here.

The whole premise of the Israeli state is that God is a racist who chose them to live there.

There's no God, so their claim is based on horseshit.

Aids.

Everyone take the rest of the night off

This is where all the Israel critics lose me. You can say this about 200 other countries. All this ethical and moral outrage holding Israel to some singular, impossible standard while ignoring everything bad going on in the rest of the world just screams bad faith to me.

Sure, Israel can act wrongly and does. So do 200 other nations. What other nation has to deal with being attacked constantly, cross border raids and thousands of missiles being fired at them over and over for 80 years? Find me that nation that is handling it better than Israel, and we have a starting point for arguing Israel could and should be acting better.

There's no similarly situated precedent. There will never be a country analogous, God willing.

Befitting, too, in this post-truth zombie apocalypse, that every moran on earth seems to have an opinion on this most intractable conflict. And ignored almost entirely, as you point out, 109 other armed conflicts rage on in perpetuity.

I'm not justifying other countries acting horrifically

What other state got plunked in the middle of their enemies for no good goddamn reason other than bullshit mysticism?

This is what I don't get about Israel sympathizers and apologists. It's always 'what about the rockets?' How about 'what about the illegitimate occupation?'

If you're gonna be a "there is no real right and wrong because everyone does it" guy, I'd respect it if you weren't picking sides.

Israel's existence isn't justifiable other than its existence, so the borders are bullshit. They're not randomly fired upon for no reason. They're fired at as occupiers. It's wrong and, sure, the only defense of the everyday people at risk is the necessary evil of the IDF. I can buy that, as those people shouldn't be at risk.

If Israel wanted to take out Hamas, hey, it's for the greater good. But they're acting as imperial colonizers committing genocide to steal land through the termination and displacement of millions of people. And, I'll repeat it, the next 9/11 will be because of it.

It's about time patriots start putting America first for once in this conflict.

You guys hear about the death threat made by some woman before some council lol or something. Got arrested almost immediately, too

lol

turrible

Prove me wrong