The costs of trans visibility
Yesterday, Dylan Mulvaney broke her silence: https://www.tiktok.com/@dylanmulvaney/vi....
For context, this is a trans influencer who built a 10 million strong following on TikTok. She took a brand deal with budweiser to post an ad on an instagram, and the anti-trans right went absolutely ballistic, calling for a boycott, condemning the company, and to some perhaps unknowable degree it influenced that Budweiser sales dropped by a 1/4 and
. Dylan speaks more personally about the effect of the hatred on her.
What strikes me about this story is that it is just about visibility. This isn't inclusion in sports or gender-affirming care for minors, it was just that a trans person was visible. This wasn't even visibility in a TV commerical that a poor right-winger is forced to see, it was an ad on her own instagram page. We're all in our own social media algorithm influenced bubbles, but from my vantage point it really has seemed that in the last year or so things have just gotten worse for trans people and the backlash to even minor visibility is growing.
We need to do better.
Why do you think I think this? You’re about as far off from correctly characterizing me views as ES2 is here.
I care little at all for nature vs nurture debates. We just be kind and accepting of trans people regardless of any “biologically basis” or lack there of. Same as the parallel debate a decade prior about gay people, nature vs nurture is a perhaps interesting side quest if one cares but doesn’t influence the core acceptance argument.
The above is a prime example of the child-like morality I mentioned below.
The act of inclusion (along with diversity and equity) is among the highest moral values in the reality of children. And for good reason. With that said, society being more inclusive of the marginalized throughout the past 100 years, while a necessary good, was not some profound moral achievement.. unless you’re stuck in the reality of the child. Of which there seem to be many.
Like I said earlier in this thread, the trans issue is going to
Lia Thomas is an adult. I don't know how the phrase you bolded implies trans children are conniving or deliberately cheating.
What do you think the inch being made a mile is in this context? Remember that its a 13 year old girl trying to compete in track and field that is being equated to taking an inch and making it a mile.
Not sure what Lia being an adult has to do with you guys explicitly thinking of her as a exploitative deviant for no other reason than being a Trans athlete
You missed the point. Observing that trans men sometimes get pregnant is just an observation about things that people do. Same as we can observe things Christians do. You are more than welcome to your own ideological beliefs about that observation and if you choose to to refuse to refer to trans men as "men" - if you must - that's disappointing, but you do you.
The point was you were begging the question by acting as if the widely agreed upon fact that trans people occasionally give birth was the issue. When the actual issue is, should we say things like "a woman's right to choose," and/or "men give birth."
At a certain point you can call stuff whatever you want. Some guy can say his ex wife is a B**** and she had kids so that shows that canines can give birth to humans. So to some degree, there is no objective answer. But there is common usage.
Most people are willng to go along with a person who has GD and make them feel comfortable. But they are not willing to pretend in all contexts that no distinction at all can be made between a biological man and a trans man.
Giving birth, for example, is a biological function linked to sex. So in that context, we think in terms of biological sex, rather than performance of social gender roles.
Thus for most people it is just common sense English to say men can wear dresses, but they can't give birth. They don't mean by this, "trans people are horrible," they mean "biological males can't give birth," which is just a fact.
Though you attempted to flip the script again, people who speak this way are not the ideologues, as this includes most people from most POVs. The ideologically driven claim: made almost exclusively by believers, is that speaking normal English and that reflects basic biological realities is an act of bigotry.
And, when we speak of issues affecting hundreds of millions of women, we must at all times keep a couple dozen trans men at the forefront of our minds. Even though many people with GD don't even believe this stuff. And imo, the most vocal ideologues often don't really have GD. (You seem to agree, but feel that we should play along in all cases).
I like the adoption comparison. It's sensible to call an adopted boy son. It is crazy to pretend that he has your eyes. It's absurd to expect others to play along as you pretend he has your eyes.
It's not bigoted or hateful to know, and even say that adopted children are not the biological children of their adoptive parents. You can certainly be a real POS if you do so in the wrong way. You don't need to bring it up constantly. But you're not obligated to LARP like you are delusional about it.
What do you think the inch being made a mile is in this context? Remember that its a 13 year old girl trying to compete in track and field that is being equated to taking an inch and making it a mile.
Not sure what Lia being an adult has to do with you guys explicitly thinking of her as a exploitative deviant for no other reason than being a Trans athlete
I don't know what that comment meant, I didn't make it.
My point was that, for the children, their parents decided what division to try to place them in. Lia is an adult athlete who performed poorly in the male division (also as an adult), then decided to switch to the female division.
Its crude and outdated in its own way, but take something like the kinsey scale. I guess I'd call myself a theoretical 1. If you want to call that "not straight", ok, I guess I'm fine with that, but I think "straight" vs "not straight" is a bit of a silly dichotomy for human sexuality that seems to be much more about spectrums.
My first thought was this kinsey scale is probably the same as a girls body count. You multiply by 2 and add one. Anyways, I didn't follow your latest argument with rick roll so maybe i missed the answer but anyways have you explained why you've been trans policing and activisming 2+2 for ages? Is it just a random hobby that captured your interest or is there more to the story? (that you're willing to share)
Yeah I realize that we have to protect the children from their brainwashed lib parents and the evil marxist doctors and the indoctrination of LGBTQ supporting teachers so they don't cause irreparable harm to their bodies making them weak and infertile through hormone therapy while simultaneously protecting the other children from those conniving and self serving trans children that are just too strong and powerful for conventional competiti
I don't think you're even trying anymore. It's only a problem with males competing vs females in sports, not the other way. Both sexes are being mutilated and drugged as children though
My first thought was this kinsey scale is probably the same as a girls body count. You multiply by 2 and add one. Anyways, I didn't follow your latest argument with rick roll so maybe i missed the answer but anyways have you explained why you've been trans policing and activisming 2+2 for ages? Is it just a random hobby that captured your interest or is there more to the story? (that you're willing to share)
No deep dirty secret, being accepting and inclusive of trans people just strikes me as the right position. And perhaps the juxtaposition between the continual “ages” long firehose of people on this forum shitting on any number of aspects of the trans experience with my actual experience with my trans students. I’m not really sure what animates the anti-trans folks so much or why only I am getting this question, but my motivation seems pretty basic.
I don't know what that comment meant, I didn't make it.
My point was that, for the children, their parents decided what division to try to place them in. Lia is an adult athlete who performed poorly in the male division (also as an adult), then decided to switch to the female division.
I think you have it completely wrong. Lia competed at a high level, transitioned and continued to want to participate in swimming at a high level.
My motivation is also pretty basic. I'm a scientist, and therefore the truth matters.
Being accepting and inclusive of all people strikes me as the right position. However, when "your reality" butts up against "reality", then "reality" should be assumed to be the position that best upholds acceptance and inclusion for all.
My motivation is also pretty basic. I'm a scientist, and therefore the truth matters.
Being accepting and inclusive of all people strikes me as the right position. However, when "your reality" butts up against "reality", then "reality" should be assumed to be the position that best upholds acceptance and inclusion for all.
That’s your definition of reality? Social acceptance and inclusion? Kindergarten is ultimate reality in your mind?
The anti-trans activists do indeed like to frame this as a debate about “reality” or “truth” or “science”, but most of these are just strawmen. The disagreement isn’t really about facts. There might be a few details on the margins, but at its core the folks ITT doing the whole “men can’t get pregnant” routine or whatever are having a debate about language or a debate about what they want to call something, not a disagreement over any basic scientific fact.
The anti-trans activists do indeed like to frame this as a debate about “reality” or “truth” or “science”, but most of these are just strawmen. The disagreement isn’t really about facts. There might be a few details on the margins, but at its core the folks ITT doing the whole “men can’t get pregnant” routine or whatever are having a debate about language or a debate about what they want to call something, not a disagreement over any basic
It has to be this way in your mind. The pushback has to be shallow. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be able to just assume the moral high ground from the beginning like you do.
Yeah I realize that we have to protect the children from their brainwashed lib parents and the evil marxist doctors and the indoctrination of LGBTQ supporting teachers so they don't cause irreparable harm to their bodies making them weak and infertile through hormone therapy while simultaneously protecting the other children from those conniving and self serving trans children that are just too strong and powerful for conventional competiti
for children, it's still about protection.
as I told you like 5 times already, we do NOT want to validate puberty blockers being used on healthy minors.
So "girls" on testosterone therapy can play competitively with girls, got it.
Except I already know you oppose this.
So your stance is inherently discriminatory. That is objective.
testosterone is a performance enhancing drug in sports, there is no discrimination, just don't take testosterone.
given there is no disease to treat what are we talking about?
I don't know what that comment meant, I didn't make it.
My point was that, for the children, their parents decided what division to try to place them in. Lia is an adult athlete who performed poorly in the male division (also as an adult), then decided to switch to the female division.
This is quite literally what I’m talking about. Lia didn’t decide to switch to the females division, she underwent hormone therapy to become a female. The female sports part is only a factor to bigots.
It’s a distinct ignorance to motivation that makes it seem like Lia transitioned to be a more successful swimmer. It’s trash to be completely frank
My first thought was this kinsey scale is probably the same as a girls body count. You multiply by 2 and add one. Anyways, I didn't follow your latest argument with rick roll so maybe i missed the answer but anyways have you explained why you've been trans policing and activisming 2+2 for ages? Is it just a random hobby that captured your interest or is there more to the story? (that you're willing to share)
I don't think you're even trying
I’ve felt like you guys haven’t been trying the whole time. Reject reality constantly to fit your **** tier opinions because that is easiest
testosterone is a performance enhancing drug in sports, there is no discrimination, just don't take testosterone.
given there is no disease to treat what are we talking about?
Yeah this isn’t rocket science.
Testosterone = performance enhancing
Lack of Testosterone = performance degradation
Except you discriminate against people was lack of testosterone based on your perception of sec. By definition it’s discrimination
And that’s fine. But I can freely point out your whole lot is objectively discriminatory
The anti-trans activists do indeed like to frame this as a debate about “reality” or “truth” or “science”, but most of these are just strawmen. The disagreement isn’t really about facts. There might be a few details on the margins, but at its core the folks ITT doing the whole “men can’t get pregnant” routine or whatever are having a debate about language or a debate about what they want to call something, not a disagreement over any basic
No, it's about basic scientific fact.
Yes it is and it certainly would be if the evidence supported your position, which it doesn't.
These two posts are a pretty good example of the framing issue. There is one side (to mirror the language, let's call them anti-trans activists and anti-trans ideologues) which likes to frame the debate as being about "basic scientific facts" or "evidence". But on the core substance of the issue, there is really very little disagreement about any scientific facts. Like when a trans man says they are a man, it is sort of silly to interpret disagreement with that statement as being a disagreement over facts. Nobody is making a scientific claim like that a trans man has XY chromosomes or something like this. On the other side, even most stalwart anti-trans activist doesn't disagree that gender dysphoria is just an observed human behaviour that can occur.
Let's take the recent debate about middle school track and field as a good example. This is mostly a disagreement about VALUES and not facts. There are values of "fairness" and values of "inclusion" etc and they are in tension and the debates are about how to resolve those tensions. Scientific facts can help inform the debates on the margins (how much of an advantage exists in various contexts, for instance) but the reason we are disagreeing isn't at its core one of scientific facts.
There are values of "fairness" and values of "inclusion" etc and they are in tension...
No, they aren't really in tension. Trans athletes are able to compete in the open division and nobody is going to say anything about it.
You want to force them into a league of sports that was created and maintained for girls, which they are not by the definition upon which those leagues were built, and that has nothing to do with inclusivity. It wasn't meant for them. Go compete in the open division with the rest of the testosterone crowd, as is intended.
If you are a member of the testosterone club by birth and shred your card for personal reasons, that still doesn't get you into the girls' league. Once a member, always a member.
Since testosterone is a performance enhancing drug with very serious ramifications for one's health, it also makes perfect sense to force real girls who decide to take it into the open league with all the natural-born testosterone users.
We built these leagues for girls to have a place to compete against their physiological peers. Science makes separating male from female pretty simple. Don't complicate it by introducing a mental factor into something sorted based on plumbing and hormones.
Just change it from men/women's sports to male/female sports. Easy game. There are no open divisions.
Not very inclusive of you. There are some people who don't fit the strict definition of either, and that's what the open division is for. It just so happens, that's where all of the males compete right now.
