Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
Some capitalists can be pro or against aid to Israel and that has nothing to do with being pro Palestine.
Right wing isolationists aren't in the same universe of actual pro Hamas people (like those in this thread).
They just think it's not in their interest to help Israel. I think they are wrong but it's a different kind of wrong than being pro monsters.
Doing what you think is good for you, your family, your friends, your country is what is moral.
Being against your country and pro the enemies of your country is what is immoral.
That's not very hard to comprehend
Some capitalists can be pro or against aid to Israel and that has nothing to do with being pro Palestine.
Right wing isolationists aren't in the same universe of actual pro Hamas people (like those in this thread).
They just think it's not in their interest to help Israel. I think they are wrong but it's a different kind of wrong than being pro monsters.
Doing what you think is good for you, your family, your friends, your country is what is m
The state taking money from it's people to aid a foreign government is not capitalism. That's global socialism. Lew Rockwell, Justin Raimondo, Jacob Hornberger, Murray Rothbard, Karl Hess, Hans Herman Hoppe, Ron Paul, Roderick Long, Sheldon Richman, et al have all written about this.
It's fine to disagree with them in favor of a mixed economy. It's just not the capitalist stance for the government to tax people and spend it on foreign aid.
The state taking money from it's people to aid a foreign government is not capitalism. That's global socialism. Lew Rockwell, Justin Raimondo, Jacob Hornberger, Murray Rothbard, Karl Hess, Hans Herman Hoppe, Ron Paul, Roderick Long, Sheldon Richman, et al have all written about this.
It's fine to disagree with them in favor of a mixed economy. It's just not the capitalist stance for the government to tax people and spend it on foreign aid.
Capitalism is about who owns the means of production.
You can have low or high taxes in capitalism, and you can also intervene in foreign countries (or not).
Mixed economy is about the existence of public schools for example. Of public employees delivering services (or goods) in the market. That's a mixed economy. Which in the USA is mainly about schools and a few local services.
Medicaid isn't socialism, having state hospitals is.
But a purely capitalist society where no service is public, could still tax people to give money to poor people to buy private services, and still be 100% capitalist.
And that money can be given to foreigners if it is decided that's in the interests of citizens.
Which btw is what Friedman clearly explains in "capitalism and freedom".
Some capitalists can be pro or against aid to Israel and that has nothing to do with being pro Palestine.
Right wing isolationists aren't in the same universe of actual pro Hamas people (like those in this thread).
They just think it's not in their interest to help Israel. I think they are wrong but it's a different kind of wrong than being pro monsters.
Doing what you think is good for you, your family, your friends, your country is what is m
I get what you're saying but neoconservatism is not capitalism. There are elements of capitalism and socialism in neoconservatism, but foreign entanglements are not capitalist -- global policing to foreign aid. Capitalists are probably the harshest critics of neoconservatism and the primary criticism is the relationship with Israel being immoral, a waste of money, and not in our interests. Again, you can disagree with them, but their arguments are consistent with capitalism.
Acting like proxy wars aren't a part of capitalism is strange
Capitalism is about who owns the means of production.
You can have low or high taxes in capitalism, and you can also intervene in foreign countries (or not).
Mixed economy is about the existence of public schools for example. Of public employees delivering services (or goods) in the market. That's a mixed economy. Which in the USA is mainly about schools and a few local services.
Medicaid isn't socialism, having state hospitals is.
But a purely
Medicaid isn't socialism? LOL, GTFO. It's completely in line with socialism. You're trying fit into something you're not.
If you believe corporatism is capitalism, sure, but it isn't. It's the state running a vital part of the economy. Capitalists believe the market should decide to help other countries. Not the state.
Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich Hayek, Ron Paul, Murray Rothbard, young(er) Ayn Rand, all against proxy wars.
[QUOTE=The Horror;58564453]The state taking money from it's people to aid a foreign government is not capitalism. That's global socialism. Lew Rockwell, Justin Raimondo, Jacob Hornberger, Murray Rothbard, Karl Hess, Hans Herman Hoppe, Ron Paul, Roderick Long, Sheldon Richman, et al have all written about this.
It's fine to disagree with them in favor of a mixed economy. It's just not the capitalist stance for the government to tax people and spend it on foreign aid.[/QUOTE]
I dont think it is productive to get so bogged down in what is socialism and what is capitalism. I think we can generally say the western liberal order represents a set of ideas that generally work and are pro civilization; and the unholy alliance of Islamism and 21st century left wing progressivism represents a set of ideas that dont work and are anathema to civilization.
And this transcends concepts of pure capitalism or socialism. For example, Israel is much more socialist than the US; and Palestinian nationalism is an offshoot of the Arab nationalist movement of the early 20th century that was itself an offshoot of Naziism, that was extremely anti Communist as a first principle concern (ideologically as important as antisemitism). So clearly supporting Israel as an avatar of civilization and rejecting Palestinian Islamism transcends the capitalism/socialism argument.
I get what you're saying but neoconservatism is not capitalism. There are elements of capitalism and socialism in neoconservatism, but foreign entanglements are not capitalist -- global policing to foreign aid. Capitalists are probably the harshest critics of neoconservatism and the primary criticism is the relationship with Israel being immoral, a waste of money, and not in our interests. Again, you can disagree with them, but their argume
You think capitalism means libertarianism which absolutely doesn't. You need to be pro capitalism to be libertarian, yes, but you don't need to be libertarian to be pro capitalism, at all.
Again capitalism vs socialism is entirely and only about who owns and controls the production of goods and services.
A state that intervenes in foreign affairs or not is completely orthogonal to that.
Some interventions can be pro capitalism and viceversa ofc. When the UK sent warships to collect private credit that was very pro capitalism. When the USSR financed communists groups throughout the globe that was pro socialism.
And many other interventions aren't either.
In the specific case of helping Israel I consider it very pro capitalism, simply because Israel is the most capitalistic country in the area and the Palestinians have often flirted with socialism
I dont think it is productive to get so bogged down in what is socialism and what is capitalism. I think we can generally say the western liberal order represents a set of ideas that generally work and are pro civilization; and the unholy alliance of Islamism and 21st century left wing progressivism represents a set of ideas that dont work and are anathema to civilization.
And this transcends concepts of pure capitalism or socialism. For
This is fair. I was just responding to Luciom's comment about Marxist and communists. He went there, and I agree that it's out of place.
Palestinian nationalism is an offshoot of the Arab nationalist movement of the early 20th century that was itself an offshoot of Naziism
lol
you people desperately want the Arabs to be something they are not. no, it was the educated and capitalist and advanced white Euros that did the holocaust. no matter how much you want to execute a child to kill a Nazi, it just doesnt work that way.
and until I get banned for exposing your depravity, I will continue to point it out.
This is fair. I was just responding to Luciom's comment about Marxist and communists. He went there, and I agree that it's out of place.
It isn't if we get back to the point, because it's very relevant.
For the west the conflict is a proxy of capitalism vs socialism. And you see it in every country.
Just check the European parties making pro Palestine statements and which groups they are from in the European parliament.
Which means that it becomes ever more moral to vote right everywhere if you are pro Israel. The exception might be the USA depending on the specific candidate for Congress you can vote for
I dont think it is productive to get so bogged down in what is socialism and what is capitalism. I think we can generally say the western liberal order represents a set of ideas that generally work and are pro civilization; and the unholy alliance of Islamism and 21st century left wing progressivism represents a set of ideas that dont work and are anathema to civilization.
And this transcends concepts of pure capitalism or socialism. For
Israel is more capitalist than most European countries, and no matter how the Arabs started radicalizing, they are very much socialists right now in Palestine.
Which is why the likes of Lula and Maduro are all pro Hamas
You think capitalism means libertarianism which absolutely doesn't. You need to be pro capitalism to be libertarian, yes, but you don't need to be libertarian to be pro capitalism, at all.
Again capitalism vs socialism is entirely and only about who owns and controls the production of goods and services.
A state that intervenes in foreign affairs or not is completely orthogonal to that.
Some interventions can be pro capitalism and viceversa of
Ron Paul is pro-life. Very unlibertarian. And Ayn Rand rejected the Libertarian Party for their libertinism. She literally compiled the book on capitalism. You should read it some time.
Interventionism is the state using stolen tax dollars to destroy rather than create. This isn't capitalist. The capitalist approach would be to not interfere with private entities gathering resources to intervene. The only capitalist argument for a state altogether is for defense.
Again, you're talking about an economy with combinations of free market capitalism with European socialism, and Italian fascism. Strengthening the state economy through tax dollars (theft to capitalists) to intervene in foreign conflict isn't even socialism. This is fascism.
You can believe it to be good. It just isn't the free market at work. It's all by state decree.
I think it is fair to say generally markets work much better than central planning. And both economic ideas work significantly better than adhering to religious manuscripts written 1500 years ago for a pre industrial revolution agrarian society.
Ron Paul is pro-life. Very unlibertarian. And Ayn Rand rejected the Libertarian Party for their libertinism. She literally compiled the book on capitalism. You should read it some time.
Interventionism is the state using stolen tax dollars to destroy rather than create. This isn't capitalist. The capitalist approach would be to not interfere with private entities gathering resources to intervene. The only capitalist argument for a state alto
Lol to all, I won't waste more time with someone who claims that Ayn Rand decides what capitalism is
Lol to all, I won't waste more time with someone who claims that Ayn Rand decides what capitalism is
With what in "Capitalism" did you disagree? Or have you not read it? It's fine if you haven't read it. You're already showing that you're out of your element in actual comparative politics discussion. Lumping in everything you don't like with a couple of words and things you do like with a couple of words.
Replace Marxism with capitalism and you get the same paradox.
The common denominator isn't violence within Marxism, communism, or capitalism. None are inherently violent. The common denominator is sycophants abusing those terms to remove their actual meanings. And you contribute to burning language down when you say stuff like this.
Marxists and Rothbardians alike are pretty vehemently anti-war and anti-state violence. The powers that have be
Goat
the Arabs were allies of the Nazis. friends. sharing the same hatred for Jews. Arabs were like "Allah is answering our prayers" wrt nazis
crickets.
Vic, you're a spineless, little fraction of a man. 1/100th of any Jew.
me, a nice guy, will provide some material for the Zionist baby murder supporters
I am sure this will help most of the thread sleep tonight.
lol
you people desperately want the Arabs to be something they are not. no, it was the educated and capitalist and advanced white Euros that did the holocaust. no matter how much you want to execute a child to kill a Nazi, it just doesnt work that way.
and until I get banned for exposing your depravity, I will continue to point it out.
Following their spectacular failures in defeating "Zionist" Jewish refugees in the 1940s, the Arabs did what they could get away with; which was basically massacres, pogroms, and ultimately ethnically cleansing the Jews out and stealing all their property. And the extreme bigotry of the Arab people has softened little in the intervening 80 years, although some Arab govts have adopted more pragmatic approaches. And the ones that haven't are basically failed states.
You are providing Pallywood material but no one here likes bad horror movies filmed for propaganda
I was bar-mitzvahed, you f*cking monkey filth. Arab fellating garbage.
The caliphate colonized that land
