Ukraine-Russia War Take 2

no I dont think it works that. but this thread, unlike some others, appears to allow posters to make repeated personal attacks.

That is exactly how it works.

What do you think was the personal attack in that post?

I don't support Russia. No matter how much you try to say it, I dont.

No it isn't lol, it's the clearest 100/0 in a long time, with Ukraine at 0 fault , it's incredible to even start discussing Ukraine has any fault.

And btw whatever you think the west did, that still doesn't allow Russia to invade Ukraine in the slightest, at all.

So anything other than "Russia should retreat in the pre 2014 borders and be extremely thankful if we don't invade and kill/jail all leaders and occupy it for a couple of decades after they retreat" is being more pro Russia than it is justified.

By your own logic you do, which has been discussed multiple times and you cannot refute:

This was defending your stance that I do not believe anything that Israel does is "morally bankrupt." This is despite the fact that I've been far far far more critical of Israel than you have been of Russia. Just a few days ago you were amplifying Russian propaganda and trying to cast Ukrainians as Nazis. You just admitted it is half not Russia's fault that Russia invaded a peaceful nation and began committing genocide.

I didnt say Ukraine had all 50% of the fault. I said the West had fault, primarily the USA.

So it's 50/0 Russia v Ukraine, + external influences, in your model, so why don't you take the Ukrainian side every single time no exceptions?

Why don't you ask for Russia to retreat into their pre 2014 borders as the only obvious moral option that would stop all the killings very easily?

You do not agree with what you said and think your own argument isn't a very logical argument?

Discussing your own logic is not a verboten topic, you are dodging.

You just admitted Russia is infinitely more guilty than Ukraine, why don't you work through all the corollaries of that

yes it would be good if they did that. in fact, that was the offer in 2022 with the exception of Crimea. instead, the West wanted a war and got one.

I dont think Ukraine deserves much blame at all. Zelenskyy some and the far right more, but it seems to me that the USA was the driving force.

in this context it is. and dont think I dont see what you are doing.

I did not admit that. and I dont think its a fair assessment to say that I did.

There's no context, either it's a logically sound argument or it's not. This is an argument that works or it doesn't.

I'll tell you exactly what I'm doing: point out your hypocrisy.

I'll tell you exactly what you're doing too: evading your own hypocrisy by dodging. Don't think everyone who reads this doesn't see what you are doing: "My comments are only meant to attack others, they are never to be used against me. My rules only apply to you, never to myself."

no I am following the rules laid out by crossnerd. you are the one breaking the rules but we all know that they are asymmetrically applied. so beyond that, you are trying to leverage that fact into enticing me into a ban.

You said the west has fault, Ukraine isn't the west.

So which fault if any does Ukraine have according to you? What exactly did they do as a country to Russia, that justifies being invaded by Russia.

There was never an offer to retreat in full out of Donbass btw

Russia was not in Donbas until 2022

What rules laid out by Crossnerd?

You been involved in these threads for over a year and a half. There's no excuse to be this wrong about this.

Also this is another extremely weak and transparent attempt to avoid the topic.

And there was no war before they invaded in 2022.

So again, the only morally defensible position since day 1 of the invasion is "Russians, go the **** back", how can you disagree with this?

You claim to be antiwar because you want Russia to be able to keep the land it invaded violently with a ceasefire lol.

That's what Russia wants as well, and it's not being pro war to not accept that.

Allowing an invader to simply attack, gain some land, then keep it "otherwise we are pro war", will convince a lot of countries to invade in the future.

there was def a war before 2022 lol. and yes I agree with Russia going back. unfortunately, bombs and tanks didnt work. maybe they should have tried talking. a lot more people would be alive and Russia would have a lot less territory.

I think that the West and the USA does not care if Russia overruns Ukraine. they just want to weaken Russia and it doesnt matter how many Ukrainians die so long as they can profit in resources or power.

We can't go over this every week, you've driven away the majority of the people who read this thread and at this point if you haven't learned then you aren't ever going to learn.

Ukraine has regained territory since the first failed negotiation. That negotiation failed because Russia did not want to talk, they wanted a capitulation; stop trying to put the blame on Ukraine. Ukraine tried talking and they were met with an ultimatum.

Russia does not want to negotiate. Putin straight up said this.

Stop repeating your nonsense!

Putin does not want to negotiate now bc he feels that he is crushing and he doesnt trust the West. he was willing to negotiate before by all accounts.

I try to focus on the topic and you cant help yourself but to make repeated personal attacks. every post from yours is a personal attack.

this entire last string of posts has been about me and not really about Ukraine or Russia. and who brought me up? you did, like you and your people always do.

Stop. You are not a victim here.

You have decided to make yourself the main focus of this thread. By continuing to assert Russian propaganda as fact despite the mountains of evidence provided to show you why it is false, you have decided to make this thread about you.

It is impossible to read a post by you now and not think "Wow this person is pro-Russia" as Movin did. Since you keep repeating lies as facts, despite having had them debunked multiple times, anytime you enter the thread and repeat a lie, the thread becomes about you instead of about the purpose of the thread. I was the only one willing to engage with you by providing you tons of resources and explaining things to you simply and clearly. You do not want to participate in this thread in good faith. You want to repeat Russian propaganda. I am finished with addressing your nonsense, just about everyone else other than Luciom is as well.

You cannot be talked to in a reasonable manner. At this point the responsible thing to do would be to remove yourself from this thread instead of repeating arguments which we've had multiple times.

There are 0 personal attacks in this post. If you think having your actions mentioned is a personal attack then that is good evidence that you should change your actions.

sounds like you cant refute, must ad hominem.

Here's the last 3 refutations from the past month or so. Unfortunately the many refutations from the last thread are now gone. If you'd like to look up any others, then you'll have to satisfy yourself with what is in this thread.

PS. Since I know you are not posting in good faith, and instead trying to "sea lion" me, I want you to know that I dug this up for any mod or for future reference.

edit: looks like I forgot to put the third in here. Well doesn't matter, it's not like you're reading them anyways since despite the mountains of evidence proving your argument to be a lie, you keep repeating it.