Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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This video is useful, because it shows a really typical experience of when North American kids go to volunteer on a Kibbutz for a summer
. (not sure why my embed didn't work)
Just jump aruond. Jump around from the cafeteria, the pool, the cattle area, the orchards, the basketball courts, etc.
This couldn't be a better vantage point. And this was made by a bunch of kids visiting, as opposed to say "IDF propaganda".
Watch and spend 60 seconds clicking about. And you'll have a very good understanding of what a Kibbutz is, and what it isn't.
Bonus points if you scan the comments, and notice it's all just people talking about how magical an experience it was for them.
It is still ethnic cleansing if you give people a week's notice to leave their homes before they get bombed. It's still ethnic cleansing if you pinky swear to let them return after you've finished bombing their city. It's still ethnic cleansing if you provide them with nice happy tent encampments to stay in while their homes are being destroyed. It's still ethnic cleansing if oTheR cOuNtRiEs Do iT tOoooo.
Shelters aren’t military bases.
Places that support the military are valid targets. I don’t know why this is difficult for you. If you launch rockets out of a school, it’s a valid target.
Also rafiki youre a civilian so unless you’re a professionally trained military person who specializes in urban warfare, I know more than you, and by your own logic, you should be quiet and listen
At least on kibbutz was used as a military base when the European Jews overthrew Britain’s rule in Palestine. So what you’re saying about them being peaceful is not based in fact. They can be peaceful and support military operations which still makes them a target.
If you keep weapons in your village and you make those weapons available to the military then you’re a target.
You guys really need to learn how to military before you start arguing with military people about the military
Also I care enough about this conflict that I looked into security work for Israel but I don’t think it would be a morally safe job so I didn’t apply for it.
Trust me when I tell you there is nothing I’d like more than to blow up the enemy in an urban combat environment. Especially the allahu akbar mother******ers
Shelters aren’t military bases.
Places that support the military are valid targets. I don’t know why this is difficult for you. If you launch rockets out of a school, it’s a valid target.
Also rafiki youre a civilian so unless you’re a professionally trained military person who specializes in urban warfare, I know more than you, and by your own logic, you should be quiet and listen
At least on kibbutz was used as a mi
Kibbutz you lived on: 0
Kibbutz I lived on: 3
I dunno man, seems like as credibility goes, you're not looking so great right now.
Then ask yourself WHY I lived on one. So far your evidence is "this one time on one Kibbutz in the 40's"
Dude. Just stop. This form of speech approaches "she got raped because her outfit was too sexy" territory right now.
It is still ethnic cleansing if you give people a week's notice to leave their homes before they get bombed. It's still ethnic cleansing if you pinky swear to let them return after you've finished bombing their city. It's still ethnic cleansing if you provide them with nice happy tent encampments to stay in while their homes are being destroyed. It's still ethnic cleansing if oTheR cOuNtRiEs Do iT tOoooo.
Except, no one cares when oTheR cOuNtRiEs Do iT tOoooo. Half the people outraged over what is going on in I/P actually cheerlead when their team is doing the ethnic cleansing. So hard to be too moved by all the moral outrage being driven by tribalism and ideology, with no first principles attached to it.
It is still ethnic cleansing if you give people a week's notice to leave their homes before they get bombed. It's still ethnic cleansing if you pinky swear to let them return after you've finished bombing their city. It's still ethnic cleansing if you provide them with nice happy tent encampments to stay in while their homes are being destroyed. It's still ethnic cleansing if oTheR cOuNtRiEs Do iT tOoooo.
Moving goalposts and whatabouts don't change the terms agreed upon. Even if tyrants agreed upon them.
It's pretty ignorant to claim Israel's warnings were enough when there was nowhere to go. Sure, this is on Egypt, but it's also on Israel for attacking from the air to save some soldiers, despite the aerial attack being ineffective.
I've said this since entering this thread. If the IDF wanted to take out Hamas, they could've done so with a ground invasion and limited civilian casualties with a counterinsurgency mission. Instead, they applied collective punishment on the citizenry for the heinous attack on 10/7. They were either stupid to think an aerial attack would be effective to remove Hamas or they didn't really care about attacking Hamas and just wanted to send a message through the destruction of people and property.
I will say a lot about the Israeli government. I'll never call it stupid.
That said, the whole mission is incredibly short-sighted, as Hamas is probably recruiting and plotting the next 10/7 with ease. The IDF is generating nothing more than blowback with their behavior.
I’m sorry for my earlier posts. I don’t mean to seem smarmy.
Look you can call it whatever name you want but if you aid the military then you’re a valid target. If IDF doesn’t want everyone to be targets they shouldn’t have a spartan warrior / civilian society.
I am not saying it’s right. I’m saying it’s legal and expected
If 80% of the concert attendees were former IDF it’s a lot diff if only 10% were, do you agree?
And I just want to say, for the record, when I was in the army I would have epic Facebook debates about Iraqi genocide, slavery, and the native American genocide. I also called American militaries terrorists lmao but I don’t know if that’s true exactly. War crimes for sure tho
There's nothing particularly tricky about it; Hamas firing rockets from Gaza does not give Israel a blank check to massacre 36,000 civilians and displace a million+ people as collective punishment.
This is just true on its face.
Again, can't emphasize enough that this is ethnic cleansing on its face, and none of the throwaway "whatabout" arguments change that.
"This" needs to be more clearly defined. Israel does have the right to defend itself and that, especially given Hamas' behavior, necessarily entails a lot of collateral damage. Where it crosses into war crime, possibly ethnic cleansing, is Israel's failure to live up to its obligations to ameliorate human suffering to the extent possible. If anything, they've done a lot to maximize human suffering by blocking aid that has little chance of getting to Hamas. That alone is a war crime. Early in the conflict, you could argue logistics, resources, etc. That excuse ran out months ago.
Israel does not have the right to force people to flee their homes en masse any more than America had the right to force indigenous people off their land.
They do have the right to defend themselves. It's not at all clear to me Israel (as a whole, not Bibi's right wing settlers) is interested in creating 2 million Palestinian refugees and ruling over a pile of rubble.
Geneva convention says Israel is only allowed to respond proportionately.
Of course they do. The very term 'ethnic cleansing' originates from the Yugoslavian civil war, and Serbian nationalist leaders Mladic, Karadzic and Milosevic were all tried by the ICC on that account. (Karadzic is currently serving his sentence in HMP Parkhurst, the well-known British prison on the Isle of Wight, of all places.)
10/7 could've been a turnaround for the harbors for Hamas to turn over leadership or be accomplices in 10/7, but Israel didn't wanna war with those countries, so it went after the people of Gaza instead. This isn't even revenge. It's trying to one-up on atrocities.
Norway, followed swiftly by Spain and Ireland, has recognised Palestine as a state, in order to further a 'two-state solution'. The Israelis are not surprisingly annoyed, because, despite the things they say to kid the Americans, they won't accept a two-state solution. (Netanyahu: 'They must agree to be ruled by us.' And that's at the mild end. Some Israeli politicians like to suggest deporting all Arabs to the Sinai Desert.)
Again we have more Hamas propaganda. Israel gives the Gazans the opportunity to get out of what is about to become a war zone for their own safety. It sucks for them but you can blame Hamas for this. Israel is supposed to be a place for Jews to live and visit safely. The threat from it's homicidal neighbor must be taken out. Israel has been more than patient with these people. On October 7th the line was crossed. I feel bad for the older wo
Im not sure this is true or that many people will agree. The line was crossed when they stole the land in the first place and economic targets are just as legitimate as military targets in a situation like this.
I’m sorry for my earlier posts. I don’t mean to seem smarmy.
Look you can call it whatever name you want but if you aid the military then you’re a valid target.
There, THAT.
Dude, a Kibbutz does not aid or act in service of the military. Full stop.
There are a few isolated ones that produce things like kevlar for example (and as private companies, not as IDF bases). If on an isolated instance you want mark down the demolition of a kevlar factory as a military strike, fine. Nobody will argue with you. But to present the collective of Kibbutz in Israel as military installations is one of the most preposterous assertions I've ever seen, and can only arise from someone who knows nothing about them. If backing the beheading and burning of seniors, women and children in them makes sense to you, militarily, then we need to have even further talks.
The other side of this coin, of course, is what the Geneva convention says about striking civilian emplacements when they're being used to launch attacks from. It would be ridiculous for me to claim that every single instance of civilian death in Gaza was a case of this. In war, nothing is that clean. If I am at least able to be this intellectually honest with you, it's getting near the point where you need to start being able to do the reverse.
Some really bad guys savegely murdered, mutilated and burned totally innocent villagers, often up close and personal in front of their families. Just own it.
So I take it Bibi runs a real risk of going to The Hague if he travels to states which recognise the ICC? Would the UK actually arrest him if he went there for example? Not sure if Ireland would and kinda doubt it tbh.
Or are parties to it obliged to abide by the warrant? Can't imagine that Argentine [strike]weirdo[/strike] President arresting him either.
A state party would need to offer some legal reason for refusing to enforce an ICC warrant. Ireland has today recognised Palestine as a state, so it may not be all that Bibi-friendly. But legal liability is a thing, and a person named on an international arrest warrant would probably not travel to a country where there was a danger of the warrant being served unless the government pre-announced their defiance of the ICC, which might be politically inconvenient in all sorts of ways. Of course we don't yet know if the court will issue the requested warrants.
Some really bad guys savegely murdered, mutilated and burned totally innocent villagers, often up close and personal in front of their families. Just own it.
The ICC's prosecutor holds that murder, hostage-taking and rape did happen and that certain named individuals are culpable.
But in a Kibbutz some 65 year old who served in the IDF 45 years ago is military, right? Even if he was a cook.
Let's not forget that less than 20% of IDF enlistees are combat rolls. You've got nurses, cooks, engineers, electricians etc.... Oh man gotta kill all those ex-Spartans. Right PW? Someone who installed lights in 1974 for the IDF is definitely a military target today in the village where he picks avocados.
Or like....we can stop this ridiculous conversation.
I mean if you helped lift a finger to kill my brother, what do you think is going to happen to you?
They aren’t ex Spartans if they are helping out Sparta my friend.
What happens the moment they pick up a gun?
