Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Same day as the five 19 year old girls in their pjs being taken, all live on gopro. Yes, enlisted IDF women unarmed and off duty. But the footage is a tough watch.
It's been a pretty brutal reminder of what the IDF is fighting for.
I watched that as well, and was reminded of the extremely complex intersectionality of the conflict. There is of course Israeli vs Palestinian, but there is also men vs women, and in all circumstances where women are at the mercy of men, I am deeply fearful for them.
clearly
I think it’s kinda like which side is doing the most killing
Idf has killed like 50-100k over last 20 years
Palestine has killed like 1500
Between the two of those counties, clearly one is much more able to commit genocide than the other. But maybe they are both guilty. It’s certainly possible
It is significant that it’s the largest death of Jews since WW2
When you declare Intifadas against a much powerful nation this is what happens. I would say between the two it sounds like Palestine is much more intent on committing a genocide if it could. We know about the Hamas charter. We hear the chants of "From the river to the sea". Israel just wants to make sure an Oct 7th style attack never happens again. You may have a few Israelis express their interest to destroy Palestine. I'm not seeing them take over college campuses and shout death to Palestine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAr9oGSX...
For those who haven't watched the documentary and want the sum total of what those women experienced that day.
A lot of care and precision went into the making of this so that what happened to those women couldn't just be swept aside like what's happening itt.
Wherever men wage war, they rape. This is an undisputed historical fact of women's history. The question is not whether rape and sexual violence occured- The question is whether rape and sexual violence was a coordinated and planned aspect of the attack. I do not doubt rape occurred. I know it did. Women know it did. But I do tend to doubt that devout Muslims coordinated en masse rape as part of their attack when it directly opposes their religious tenets. Rape occurs without those plans anyway.
I have posted this before but I will post it again for referece.
The practice of raping the women of a conquered group has remained a feature of warfare and conquest from the second millennium B.C. to the present. It is a social practice which, like the torture of prisoners, has been resistant to "progress", to humanitarian reforms, and to sophisticated moral and ethical considerations. I suggest this is the case because it is a practice built into and essential to the structure of patriarchal institutions and inseparable from them. It is at the beginning of the system, prior to class formation, that we can see this in its purest essence. -Gerda Lerner, mother of women's history
As a reminder, the US military raped their way through Okinawa. It wasn't a coordinated plan. But it happened.
Wherever men wage war, they rape. This is an undisputed historical fact of women's history. The question is not whether rape and sexual violence occured- The question is whether rape and sexual violence was a coordinated and planned aspect of the attack. I do not doubt rape occurred. I know it did. Women know it did. But I do tend to doubt that devout Muslims coordinated en masse rape as part of their attack when it directly opposes their r
I am off for the night. But I will leave you with a question:
If 2 IDF soldiers grabbed an 18 year old Palestinian girl and raped her with glee in front of a family member, would anyone be asking if it was "coordinated"?
Night y'all.
There actually is a tangible difference in ideology if Hamas coordinated rape attacks as part of their military strategy vs Hamas simply consisting of men, a % of whom rape.
what are you getting out of this man? there are like 5 regs on this forum, so even if you are influencing anyone (who knows), it doesn't matter, like at all. does yelling OCT 7 RAPE OCT 7 RAPE OCT 7 RAPE OCT 7 RAPE OCT 7 RAPE all day make you feel better? disturbing, frankly
it certainly doesn't lead to any productive or interesting discussion of this conflict
Wherever men wage war, they rape. This is an undisputed historical fact of women's history. The question is not whether rape and sexual violence occured- The question is whether rape and sexual violence was a coordinated and planned aspect of the attack. I do not doubt rape occurred. I know it did. Women know it did. But I do tend to doubt that devout Muslims coordinated en masse rape as part of their attack when it directly opposes their r
You're in denial.
You know rape happened.
Hamas knows rape happened. Hamas kept allowing it to happen to those under their captivity. Hamas has come out and said given the chance they'll do 10/7 again, and at a larger scale.
There is no world where you can reasonably think Hamas isn't intentionally using rape as a weapon.
Don't fall for the trap of believing Hamas, and other Islamic extremists, represent "devout Muslims." If they really do, you're indicting the religion as a whole and that does an incredible amount of injustice to the hundreds of millions of devout, and peaceful, Muslims all over the world.
The US military commited thousands of rapes the first month of their occupation of Japan during ww2. It wasn't part of the military strategy and hundreds of the rapes were prosecuted. It would matter if it were proven the US coordinated mass rapes.
It actually does matter whether rape and sexual violence was a coordinated aspect of their military strategy. I have not seen evidence of it being coordinated, and remain unsurprised that certain individual men, of their own accord, rape when presented with the opportunity.
It’s like they don’t even think about how their posts pertain to their arguments
The US military commited thousands of rapes the first month of their occupation of Japan during ww2. It wasn't part of the military strategy and hundreds of the rapes were prosecuted. It would matter if it were proven the US coordinated mass rapes.
It actually does matter whether rape and sexual violence was a coordinated aspect of their military strategy. I have not seen evidence of it being coordinated, and remain unsurprised that certain
There are plenty of things which matter between any rape occurring at all and it being a coordinated effort as well, many of which have already been mentioned itt.
The US military attempted to stop the rapes in Japan through various measures, including prosecuting soldiers. I have not seen this done by Hamas.
The US military did not launch a surprise attack on Japan, allowing or even encouraging, soldiers to attack women and (best case scenario) not caring if women were raped.
The argument that "of course rape occurred, men were involved" does not accurately address what happened on 10/7, and borders on "boys will be boys" logic which largely excuses it.
It isn't an excuse. Its an indictment. If men were so horrified by rape, they would stop each other from raping. Instead, its a hallmark of male violence that permeates the entirety of human history.
britta perry community dot meme: i can excuse genocide/ethnic cleansing, but i draw the line at some hypothetical sexual assaults
It might be an indictment of men, but in doing so it removes blame from individuals.
I am going to guess that occurences of rape in western militaries today are far fewer than they were in the WW2 example, largely because men do care about this issue.
By removing all details that occur between "any rape occurred" and "rape was a coordinated effort", the matter is simplified in a manner that removes any individual accountability and in this case seeks to lump all men together. I am unsure if rape has occurred in every conflict ever, but I can guarantee that recently efforts to prevent and respond to sexual violence have evolved significantly, particularly in Western militaries. This type of framing ignores those efforts, and also excuses those who make no effort to combat sexual violence.
You can have that opinion but it goes against all empirical evidence of women’s history of sexual violence in war time. Indeed, it is a phenomenon that has not diminished within the framework of other atrocities within modern history. You can be mad at me for citing it, or mad at the men who make it true. The patriarchy is a monolith, but if you want to “not all men” me, by all means, I am versed in that arena.
Which part of my opinion goes against all empirical evidence of women's history of sexual violence in war time?
I am not mad at anyone.
If you want to dumb down my argument to be "not all men" then feel free, although I think this case it be more like "some men are worse than others". Feel free to address it however you wish.
Which part of my opinion goes against all empirical evidence of women's history of sexual violence in war time?
I am not mad at anyone.
If you want to dumb down my argument to be "not all men" then feel free, although I think this case it be more like "some men are worse than others". Feel free to address it however you wish.
Men and genocide are on continuums.
Of the 2.2M, how many civilians need to die for it to be genocide? What do you think is a number that holds water?
I won't even muddy the waters with intent/human shield sort of stuff.
Not interested in playing silly number games.
Some things in life don’t need exact definitions for us to recognise them and I hope you know this.
Wherever men wage war, they rape. This is an undisputed historical fact of women's history. The question is not whether rape and sexual violence occured- The question is whether rape and sexual violence was a coordinated and planned aspect of the attack. I do not doubt rape occurred. I know it did. Women know it did. But I do tend to doubt that devout Muslims coordinated en masse rape as part of their attack when it directly opposes their r
Crossnerd while that was common historically, I would need proof of Italian military raping in Afghanistan and Lebanon here otherwise you have to change your claim at least for recent military interventions.
Raping the infidels doesn't necessarily oppose all Muslims religious tenets btw, that religion interpretation of the concept is very fluid (in the sense that there are a myriad different interpretations inside Islam) and some radicals believe the infidels (to summarizes) basically aren't humans.
And you don't need coordinated raping for all the 10 7 mission participants, a group of them believing they can rape the infidels liberally and doing that wantonly is already enough to mark a significant difference with many other recent military interventions from the west
