Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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I dont see how thay would make a difference. If bibi wants to empower hamas for some palestinian revolt against hamas or to give credence to the idea of going in and wiping them out, then it certainly worked in his favor.
Its like determining the guilt of the creator of How to catch a predator when he gets a fake underage girl to take her panties off to catch the bad guy.
In that analogy Israel also molested the guy when he was a kid to begin with.
I get lebanon being the current annoyance and that would certianly escalate first. But im am curious on some thoughts on how far this potentially could go and how far those in charge would be willing to take it. All major wars start out with a small kerfuffle.
Hezbollah has a massive arsenal, and Israel has had to abandon entire border towns as a result of the constant attacks. And good chance any attempt to stop these attacks will lead to an actual giant war with Lebanon. You dont seem to appreciate the gravity of the situation IMO. Not a small kerfuffle at all.
Here’s the sexism lmao. Don’t tell girls they are wrong about sexual assault. Your opinions thoughts and ideas are invalid and not welcome in this space
Why are my opinions thought and ideas invalid? Why does the sex of whoever I'm claiming is "wrong" matter?
(FWIW I am not telling CN she is wrong.)
"Four of the 15 judges argue ruling does not require that Israel halt all Rafah operations if it ensures it’s complying with the Genocide Convention; South African judge disagrees"
They got their majority. But 4/15 with that comment is worth highlighting.
Belief is also that this is difference making:
It's one thing to have aid cross the border and another for how much actually got distributed. I think that Jose Andres situation kind of put a damper on things as one example.
Hezbollah has a massive arsenal, and Israel has had to abandon entire border towns as a result of the constant attacks. And good chance any attempt to stop these attacks will lead to an actual giant war with Lebanon. You dont seem to appreciate the gravity of the situation IMO. Not a small kerfuffle at all.
Relatively speaking, i think we would disagree on that being a giant war compared to other possible scenarios that could happen.
Regarding the "anything to get rid of Hamas" argument:
Even if I were to accept that anything is morally justified to get rid of whoever threatens you (I don't, and even the people suggesting this argument have previously indicated they don't), that doesn't cover the reality of the situation:
Although Hamas’ communications and military abilities have been degraded, only 30 to 35 percent of its fighters — those who were a part of Hamas before the Oct. 7 attack — have been killed and about 65 percent of its tunnels are still intact, U.S. intelligence indicates.
Spoiler
What is the morally justified amount of civilian death to weaken Hamas while ignoring the "secured" areas and allowing Hamas to openly recruit again?
We've been over this before: the narrative being put forth that we just need to stomach a few more civilian deaths (100k+ by the current rate not taking into account recruitment efforts) and it'll all be over with Hamas (although not Hamas 2.0), does not reflect reality.
yeah israel can't even defeat hamas, they're certainly not gonna win a war vs iran or anyone else
I think the aid has been a lot more recent and I also think they knew about the attack head of time and ignored all the warnings because they wanted it to happen.
Ok. You have obviously dropped plenty of hints, but thank you for explicitly laying out what you think happened.
Obviously, we will have to agree to disagree. Without overwhelming evidence the other way, when it comes to governments (especially right wing governments), if one is asked to choose between incompetence or some 4D Machiavellian chess move leading towards a seemingly bad outcome, I think the correct move is to always choose incompetence.
Ok. You have obviously dropped plenty of hints, but thank you for explicitly laying out what you think happened.
Obviously, we will have to agree to disagree. Without overwhelming evidence the other way, when it comes to governments (especially right wing governments), if one is asked to choose between incompetence or some 4D Machiavellian chess move leading towards a seemingly bad outcome, I think the correct move is to always choose in
I don't see how we're supposed to believe that some of the most surveilled people on earth got a sneak attack of this magnitude through.
I don't see how we're supposed to believe that some of the most surveilled people on earth got a sneak attack of this magnitude through.
In a Democratic country with a free press, where a majority of the people and press dont even like the ruling party, I dont see how it would be possible to keep such a conspiracy hidden. Incompetence still seems more likely to me.
We know Israel was given warnings of an attack at an unknown date, and we know they publicly hand waved it away saying Hamas was incapable. Seems more likely it was just incompetence than some grand conspiracy to protect a ruling party that is extremely unpopular.
yeah i never looked into it at all, but i did see reports that egyptian intelligence warned israel that something was going on in the gaza strip before oct 7
They were given warnings from their own guards tasked with monitoring the border.
What is the morally justified amount of civilian death to weaken Hamas while ignoring the "secured" areas and allowing Hamas to openly recruit again?
I dont know if Israel is "ignoring" the secured areas. Seems they are selectively re-attacking those areas and killing and capturing lots of Hamas members when they do. I have heard it floated this might actually be an intentional strategy.
It seems their plan is just to weaken Hamas military capabilities. And there isn't much of a plan beyond that.
I dont know if Israel is "ignoring" the secured areas. Seems they are selectively re-attacking those areas and killing and capturing lots of Hamas members when they do. I have heard it floated this might actually be an intentional strategy.
Agreed, "ignoring" is a poor choice of words on my part. They are not managing these areas in a way which would prevent Hamas from recruiting, and having to kill even more which will help Hamas's recruitment effort.
It seems their plan is just to weaken Hamas military capabilities. And there isn't much of a plan beyond that.
I agree, which was the point of my post. The narrative that Israel is going to eradicate Hamas if they're allowed to kill enough civilians is not what is going to happen.
And it doesn't excuse Hamas fwiw.
But when Israel creates all of the conditions where actual peace is impossible, then funds militants and ignores their attack plans, they then don't get to choose unlimited violence when the inevitable attack that they wanted finally comes.
In Formula's to catch a predator analogy, Israel creates the predator, sets them loose on the world, then sets them up in a sting operation. Yes the predator is a bad person but they were created to be bad.
Hezbollah, which is part of the government of Lebanon, is constantly attacking northern Israel, while promising Israel's destruction. So Israel is basically at war with Lebanon right now. I am guessing dealing with the border state constantly attacking them while calling for their destruction is the priority.
If they go all Gaza on Beirut, that's not going to go over very well.
And it doesn't excuse Hamas fwiw.
But when Israel creates all of the conditions where actual peace is impossible, then funds militants and ignores their attack plans, they then don't get to choose unlimited violence when the inevitable attack that they wanted finally comes.
My understanding is they agreed to act as a middle man (cutting out Fatah) in dispersing UAE aid, for the purpose of weakening Fatah's leverage over Hamas. It is really stretching to call that "funding militants" IMO.
I mean, by that definition Israel is currently "funding militants" by allowing aid through right now.
I just want to remind everybody that if the "Palestinians" would have accepted the partition plan back in the day they wouldn't be in the situation they are in.
Entire towns have been abandoned with the people living in hotels for months because of attacks from Lebanon. It already isn't going well.
When dealing with Islamists who vow your destruction, who get carte blanche by the international community to do what they want while every action you take is held up to a microscope, there isn't a lot of options that are going to end up going very well.
Entire towns have been abandoned with the people living in hotels for months because of attacks from Lebanon. It already isn't going well.
When dealing with Islamists who vow your destruction, who get carte blanche by the international community to do what they want while every action you take is held up to a microscope, there isn't a lot of options that are going to end up going very well.
But in reality, does the Lebanon govt have any power over Hezbollah? It's a convenient out for them but it's also probably true.
Israel is going to have to do a lot of the heavy lifting in the south with some strikes in the city but don't think they can go carpet bombing Beirut.
Ok. You have obviously dropped plenty of hints, but thank you for explicitly laying out what you think happened.
Obviously, we will have to agree to disagree. Without overwhelming evidence the other way, when it comes to governments (especially right wing governments), if one is asked to choose between incompetence or some 4D Machiavellian chess move leading towards a seemingly bad outcome, I think the correct move is to always choose in
Yeah. They might not have to even be that incompetent. Real life is crazy and chaotic. Maybe Israel got warnings. They probably get warnings all the time. How detailed were the warnings?
Maybe Hamas has tried something like this 75 times and been thwarted 74 times.
Yes, Palestinians are heavily surveilled and whatever. Look at all the weapons, murders, drugs, booze, gang activity etc. that goes on in US prisons. Those people live in cells, don't even have control over what clothes they wear or when or what they eat, but they figure out a way.
