Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Dont know how true it is, but reports of live fire between Israel and Egypt troops at the Rafah border crossing. Looks like Egypt is working with Hamas to do whatever it takes to get Israel out of Rafah and take back control of the smuggling tunnels and weapons depots.
Israel might also be getting too close to something important Egypt doesn't want them to find; maybe a major smuggling tunnel network.
An Egyptian soldier has been killed, presumably by the Israelis, in an exchange of fire near Rafah. Egypt is allied to Israel by treaty since the 1970s. This is not going well. The weird conspiracy theory quoted above is obviously silly.
Just what we KNOW the Egyptians were complicit to the last few years now looks really really bad. Gotta be some politicians in Israel who question is Egypt was just a really good frenemy.
I don't think the whole thing will unravel though. The status quo was easier for Egypt before.
No. Imprisoned for stealing records of secret information and betraying them to a media source while employed by the US Army, in breach of the terms of said employment.
bit of a thread derail, but...
I guess legally speaking, you're right, but...
have you seen the video she leaked?
I thought basically everyone agreed that it's a crime to keep that video hidden, not to release it
so releasing the video is journalism, imo... and basically everyone else's opinion too.
and even legally, i'd assume there is some sort of legal case to be made for whistle blowing, or covering up mass murder... which I'm sure was made in the trial, but that doesn't mean justice was served
He has been locked up in Belmarsh, a high security prison in the UK for the last 5 years.
oh really.. yeah that actually sounds familiar now that you mention it. I thought he was still hiding out in an embassy lol.... like I said, I'm pretty uniformed
thanks!
It is in part because the usa have failed to give assurances that he will be protected by the right to free speech. That and the death penalty iirc
I think there was some concern about torture too... not like waterboarding, but just general practice of USA prison to use solitary confinement and/or keep people isolated 23.5 hours a day, and constant fluorescent light
or whatever lol... just vaguely remember something about torture too
The Israeli air strike on a tented refugee camp, an area they actually told Gazans to go to, has not worked out well. Intended to kill two supposed Hamas fighters, it actually and not surprisingly killed 45 people.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0kkqk...
EU leaders from France, Spain, Italy and Germany are all pretty fed up and would like Israel to obey the ICJ ruling and stop this kind of thing.
bit of a thread derail, but...
I guess legally speaking, you're right, but...
have you seen the video she leaked?
I thought basically everyone agreed that it's a crime to keep that video hidden, not to release it
so releasing the video is journalism, imo... and basically everyone else's opinion too.
and even legally, i'd assume there is some sort of legal case to be made for whistle blowing, or covering up mass murder... which I'm sure was made
A public-interest defence could have been made, if the leak had been more selective, but in this case it didn't succeed. The sheer volume of material betrayed, compromising US intelligence assets and diplomatic cables en masse, meant that Manning, as a serving US soldier, hadn't a prayer.
The Israeli air strike on a tented refugee camp, an area they actually told Gazans to go to, has not worked out well. Intended to kill two supposed Hamas fighters, it actually and not surprisingly killed 45 people.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0kkqk...
EU leaders from France, Spain, Italy and Germany are all pretty fed up and would like Israel to obey the ICJ ruling and stop this kind of thing.
So it’s just accepted that Hamas commanders are hiding among civilians and the only thing to do is to make Israel leave them alone.
It's getting that way.
Israel have eroded nearly all support and then there's the law.
That’s a preposterous outcome and for obvious reasons unacceptable to Israel.
The reality is that they are digging themselves into a deeper and deeper hole.
So it’s just accepted that Hamas commanders are hiding among civilians and the only thing to do is to make Israel leave them alone.
I think Israel will find that if they want to send troops into these places to capture or kill Hamas commanders (or really any actual combatants) "by hand" they will not get much pushback, even if there are civilian casualties that result from this type of operation. It seems what the rest of the world is getting fed up with is the dozens of civilians killed by an airstrike that may or may not also kill the intended targets. If Israel cares at all about international opinion/support it will need to reduce the collateral damage to civilians even if that means greater casualties to their own forces. If they don't care at all about international opinion or support, carry on.
There's a lot that can happen between "doing nothing" and an airstrike which will kill a lot of civilians.
I'm not gonna post the X videos because I have to be at least as good as I expect Vic to be
It'll be interesting to see if the smoking gun on this Rafah thing proves out. Seems to be some at least plausible root causes on Hamas ammo dumps hidden right there, which is par for the course for them. But till thats proven that's just social media speculation like all the rest of it.
Best thing I've read on what "day after" could potentially look like:
Hamas started all of this, are breaking every law in the books, and not only are getting no pressure put on them to modify their behavior by the international community, they are seemingly being rewarded by offers of statehood.
Given this, and the real stakes of fighting Islamists who vow their destruction (not just in Gaza, but throughout the MENA) why in the world should Israel care about losing goodwill of international community bad faith actors???
Best thing I've read on what "day after" could potentially look like:
My understanding is that an important reason that Hamas is so ruthless stealing the aid shipments and shooting Palestinians who get in their way is suppressing clans filling the power vacuum. And they will ruthlessly and violently oppose anyone else making a play on their turf.
The only hope for Palestinian society moving forward is weakening Hamas enough to the point they aren't capable of violently suppressing other players, who might be better (and might be just as bad). And the world, including the US under Biden, seems desperate to make sure this doesn't happen and Hamas keeps control.
I assume your last sentence is addressing Israel's allies being outraged over killing 45 civilians to potentially take out 2 Hamas soldiers?
I think Israel will find that if they want to send troops into these places to capture or kill Hamas commanders (or really any actual combatants) "by hand" they will not get much pushback, even if there are civilian casualties that result from this type of operation. It seems what the rest of the world is getting fed up with is the dozens of civilians killed by an airstrike that may or may not also kill the intended targets. If Israel cares
I say carry on. They didn't ask for this war why should they put their own people into harms way. Every Gazan civilian who dies is the responsibility of Hamas. There would be no "tragic accidents" if Hamas didn't attack on October 7th.
Hamas started all of this, are breaking every law in the books, and not only are getting no pressure put on them to modify their behavior by the international community, they are seemingly being rewarded by offers of statehood.
Given this, and the real stakes of fighting Islamists who vow their destruction (not just in Gaza, but throughout the MENA) why in the world should Israel care about losing goodwill of international community bad fait
I dont agree wiht your spin on it but your vision of israel as an isolated pariah state sounds both hideous and dangerous for israel.
Now back to actual, real things that are happening.
In before GS says Rafah massacre of people in tents is all good because from tents you can make ropes and from ropes you can hang people, therefore they're all Hamas anyway, kill them all.
Either these people are stupid for hanging out in a tent with Hamas leaders or Hamas leaders made them stay there hoping Israel wouldn't strike. Either way "A tragic mistake" was made.
Either these people are stupid for hanging out in a tent with Hamas leaders or Hamas leaders made them stay there hoping Israel wouldn't strike. Either way "A tragic mistake" was made.
In fairness, Hamas (or someone just as bad) is probably embedded in all the refugee camps. There is probably no way to avoid them. And I doubt the people living in the tents have a clue when Hamas is pursuing military operations in their vicinity.
In a sane world obviously the blame for all of this lies on Hamas, for the invasion, taking hostages, being bad faith actors in negotiations, and then undergoing military operations using refugees as human shields. But in our particular fever dream, they get a pass for all of this by the International community.
The irony is that as much as the intentional comment is agnostic towards their bad behavior, they probably expected even more favoritism. After they attacked Israel in 2021 Biden took out the checkbook and gave them billions to end the hostilities, which they poured into expanding the war machine. They were probably expecting something similar after 10/7, and have to be disappointed their actions weren't rewarded as heavily as expected.
I dont agree wiht your spin on it but your vision of israel as an isolated pariah state sounds both hideous and dangerous for israel.
Which part of the post do you disagree with?
You dont agree Hamas is breaking international laws? Or you dont think Islamists throughout the MENA are vowing Israel's destruction? Or you dont think Palestine (under Hamas) is being recognized as a state by much of the international community?
Also, I feel you could make a compelling argument the Palestinians current actions on and since 10/7 seem to be leading towards a hideous and dangerous outcome. And yet there is zero pressure from the international community to course correct. If anything, the worse they behave, the more they are given material and moral support. Why is this?
Hamas is monstrously awful. That's not in dispute with me and it's a proscribed terrorist organisation in the uk.
Israels response under netanyahu is monstrous, stupid and most likely illegal in many respects. Blame us all for being bad faith actors all you like but I dont agree.
