Israel/Palestine thread

You can try to, yes

pretty clear at this point that hamas were unable to protect the oct 7 hostages from their own rank and file. they have nothing to trade other than bodies, and that's not gonna get it done

Jerusalem was supposed to be run by the UN
It was not supposed to be part of the Palestinian state

Jordan occupied both east and west Jerusalem for 20 years

Then they withdrew

Israel annexed east jerusalem and ALLOWS Jordan to control the temple mount. Again, before 1967, Israelis couldn't enter Jerusalem

But when Israel took over Jerusalem they decided to allow Muslims to pray at the temple mount
And have "governorship" of the temple mount to Jordan

The temple mount. The spot where THE JEWISH TEMPLE stood for at least a century, was destroyed, rebuilt, and destroyed again

Anything else i can help explain to you?

This is what we're trying to say, and seemingly pulling teeth in the process

From day 1 they wouldn't even let the RED CROSS visit the hostages. Never gave a list. It's been chaos all along

Not in the Arab world no, they are all very closely related. They can divide further because of non genetic reasons and they did. Not the first place to have that, some countries in the Balkans are separated but genetically indistinguishable.

And of course north and south Korea exist.

But all this still just means that Gaza can be Egyptian, why should it be independent? And if Egypt doesn't want it, what does it tell you?

West bankers had Jordanian citizenship and passports at one time. Then they abandoned them

I don't think it would be though. The whole point of talking about Egypt or Jordan is to farm out the repression of the locals out to one of the friendly neighborhood autocrats.

Washoe
You do realize that Palestinians do not control the temple mount right?

I thought the point was retrieving the hostages, apparently we've moved on to a weird synthesis of 19th century colonialism and 23 And Me. May I suggest we pause the bombings while we figure out where we're going to forcibly deport the people of Gaza? Awfully hard to do the necessary genetic testing in a conflict zone.

I'm talking about the point of why the Palestinians "need" their own separate state from Jordan or Egypt

How do you "steal" land in war? Is it "stealing" if the other side would just as happily "steal" your land if they were capable? Typically winning a war involves atrocities.

Britain and the UN screwed the pooch 75 years ago and this is all resulting from the world powers failures back then. Palestine likes to do little bro **** then cry foul when big bro punches back. Its typically in the weaker parties best interest to compromise so things like this don't happen, but Palestine refuses to compromise (on a macro level, they love to pretend to want to play ball when they are currently getting their face smashed in)

As opposed to the bang up job Hamas is doing?

We're talking about what would have killed the least people and made for the most regional harmony.

There is no question that Jordan and Egypt pulled some frenemy stuff here and helped further along the intractable part of this conflict, by not doing what made all the sense in the world when all this was partitioned. And everyone has been paying for it in blood since. Those could and should have just been parts of the existing and able Arab states beside Israel. It's unnecessarily complicated to try any other way, and we're witnessing that very fact today.

What we're trying today is literally the worst of all the possible paths that were available to Palestinians. That's a fact.

Imagine being homeless, and you have many relatives living nearby, and not a single one of them wants to take you home with them.

Not even for the time needed for you to get back in shape and being able to be independent.

Not a single one of them, even if they know you are going through a very very rough time because business owners in the streets you try to sleep into are angry at you after you kidnapped the daughter of one of them and slaughtered her after raping her, and made a viral video about it.

But you did it because you thought your homelessness problem was caused by them ofc, and your relatives even kind of agree with that.

But no one related to you wants to have to deal with you, and this has been going on for decades.

Are the relatives the baddies, the homeless guy, or both?

of course I do
do you realize that it is controlled by muslims now?

And

You signed an armistice agreement on 1949 that says "THESE BORDERS ARE NOT PERMANENT AND WILL BE DETERMINED BY WAR AND NEGOTIATIONS "

The point was retrieving a many hostages as possible AND making it impossible for Hamas or anyone like them to ever again be able to pull a 10 7 off, at any cost, as if your life actually depended on it.

23, and me, has no bearing on the issue. Jordans has the same genetic profile of Palestine and they have shown in decades they can be a neighbor you can live with.

A perfect one? No.

But a pragmatic one you have to accept and make compromises with.

Same with Egypt.

Bombings shouldn't be stopped until Hamas is still capable in any capacity of waging terrorist acts.

The British and the UN made many other comical errors in the past, but most places in the world aren't as ****ed up as the area we are discussing anyway

Wish I could find the diagram I saw the other day on tons of aid by country of origin to Gaza, to show what Egypt and Jordan have sent.

It's really sad, specially in the context of what some others have sent. Or that hissy fit from the other day where the IDF was just about to find all the tunnels and Egypt was like "we're not sending anything!"

That was precious

Israel ALLOWS JORDAN to control it. Israel chose to do that after JORDAN ABANDONED IT in 1967

Again when Jordan OCCUPIED JERUSALEM they did not allow Israel or Israelis to pray at the temple mount. At all.

Israel believes in freedom of religion and respects the religious significance of the temple mount even though it is built on the spot where the Jewish Temple was destroyed

It is not "controlled by muslims"

Israel allows Jordan to administer it

Jerusalem is the UNDIVIDED CAPITOL of Israel

Here's a Wikipedia snippet

Shortly after capturing the site, Israel handed its administration back to the Waqf under the Jordanian Hashemite custodianship, while maintaining Israeli security control.[31] The Israeli government enforces a ban on prayer by non-Muslims as part of an arrangement usually referred to as the "status quo".[32][33][34] The site remains a major focal point of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict.[35]

Israel decided to only allow Muslim to pray there

Tbh Jordan is bearing the huge price of having a monstrous (relative to their population) number of Palestinian refugees in their land.

They get paid for that sure, still a cost on net I think.

I don't know for some reasons I am biased pro Jordan in general, they seem like a fairly decently run country in an area that typically lacks them

Speaking of theory of mind, the Egyptians and the Jordanians don't want the Palestinians and they don't want to go to either one of those countries but were still talking like 19 century imperialists who can't comprehend why the locals are being so ornery, and don't just go along with whatever imperial mandate is being handed down.

We're talking about Hamas having some kind of implacable irrational hatred of Jews and Israel, but somehow just joining Egypt will make everything gravy. Where would that implacable irrational hatred of someone right next door go to?

As opposed to what?

As a thought experiment, assume Israel is a good faith partner to the Palestinians. Given the actual realties of Palestinian politics and culture, what are the steps where they form a civil society and functional govt where some actor like Hamas, Hezbollah or Houthis dont just take over, repress the populace, and start another war; except doing it from the West Bank with modern drone warfare, so Israel is guaranteed to take major damage along with the Palestinians

Moral arguments aside, have you ever thought how such a peaceful Palestinian state could practically come to be, given geopolitical realities? Like what are the actual steps where you get from Point A to Point Z.

The fact that you aren't blockaded anymore?

Purportedly, all Gazean grievances specifically are predicated on the fact that when Israel abandoned it to hamas rule, they still controlled it by a de facto blockade.

If they join Egypt that's it. They get access to the same goods all Egyptians get access to.

And if they still hate Israel a lot and want to do terror in Israel and start planning about that the Egyptians will just swiftly massacre them without mercy like they do with islamist domestic terrorists.

You know what, now that I think of it I understand why Hamas doesn't want Gaza to join Egypt.