Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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The British and the UN made many other comical errors in the past, but most places in the world aren't as ****ed up as the area we are discussing anyway
Well yeah this is a particularly unique **** up. Britain promised the Israelis Jerusalem and then was given retainership of Jerusalem to establish a Palestinian state. This was right after the freakin Holocaust and after millions of Jews had been displaced and/or migrated. They threw up their hands in defeat and handed it off to the UN who proceeded to do nothing with teeth and just left it up to the two populations to sort it out themselves.
Speaking of theory of mind, the Egyptians and the Jordanians don't want the Palestinians and they don't want to go to either one of those countries but were still talking like 19 century imperialists who can't comprehend why the locals are being so ornery, and don't just go along with whatever imperial mandate is being handed down.
We're talking about Hamas having some kind of implacable irrational hatred of Jews and Israel, but somehow jus
If you argument is that it is completely unrealistic in 2024 to ask Jordan and Egypt to absorb the Palestinians, and suggesting it shows poor theory of mind, then I agree with you. And for Gaza especially this is a pretty big indictment something is very wrong with Palestinian society, as this is prime Mediterranean coastal real estate.
Well yeah this is a particularly unique **** up. Britain promised the Israelis Jerusalem and then was given retainership of Jerusalem to establish a Palestinian state. This was right after the freakin Holocaust and after millions of Jews had been displaced and/or migrated. They threw up their hands in defeat and handed it off to the UN who proceeded to do nothing with teeth and just left it up to the two populations to sort it out themse
There was this rose-tinted vague hope of an "international" Jerusalem because historical records actually allowed us to think it was theoretically possible for Jerusalem to be hospitable to Jews, Muslims, and Christians (for some decently long spans of time, under Muslim supervision nevertheless, that actually happened, and we shouldn't forget Jerusalem is holy for christians as well) all togheter.
So I can't be too hard on people who were perhaps 60y old in the 40s of the 20th century, who dreamt about such a future.
Well yeah this is a particularly unique **** up. Britain promised the Israelis Jerusalem and then was given retainership of Jerusalem to establish a Palestinian state. This was right after the freakin Holocaust and after millions of Jews had been displaced and/or migrated. They threw up their hands in defeat and handed it off to the UN who proceeded to do nothing with teeth and just left it up to the two populations to sort it out themse
Honestly, where things really went sideways was the US/UN forcing Israel to allow Palestinians to live as generational refugees on their borders, completely subsidized by the rest of the world, to appease Arabs and keep the oil flowing.
Moral arguments aside, the way this would naturally play out is Israel and the rest of the world dont facilitate generational refugee camps of belligerents propped up completely by foreign aid demanding right of return, life in Gaza and the West Bank is miserable and truly hopeless, and everyone migrates for greener pastures.
And if that had happened the world would have moved on and everyone would be better off. Such as what happened with all the Mizrachi Jews that were pushed out of the Muslim majority world.
Britain left a lot of ****ed up situations, that naturally played themselves out to some equilibrium; even India/Pakistan/Bangladesh. The world propping up the Palestinians in such an unnatural state generationally is where this went so iretractably sideways.
There was this rose-tinted vague hope of an "international" Jerusalem because historical records actually allowed us to think it was theoretically possible for Jerusalem to be hospitable to Jews, Muslims, and Christians (for some decently long spans of time, under Muslim supervision nevertheless, that actually happened, and we shouldn't forget Jerusalem is holy for christians as well) all togheter.
So I can't be too hard on people who were p
Jerusalem is hospitable to Jews, Muslims, and Christians
Is a very special place and I'm thankful Israel allows the old city to still exist as 4 quarters
I don't suppose anyone's considered letting the Palestinians just stay where they are and not flattening their homes/schools/hospitals?
As opposed to what?
As a thought experiment, assume Israel is a good faith partner to the Palestinians. Given the actual realties of Palestinian politics and culture, what are the steps where they form a civil society and functional govt where some actor like Hamas, Hezbollah or Houthis dont just take over, repress the populace, and start another war; except doing it from the West Bank with modern drone warfare, so Israel is guaranteed to
I could say, support moderate factions by giving political gains by giving when those factions gain power while undermining extremist factions in the necessary ways, violent, political or otherwise. Be respectful of sovereignty generally and of the people specifically.
But there's already a group of people recognize Israel and eschew violence, the PA in the West Bank, and have they gotten a good faith partner is Israel? No, the PA is seen as the a corrupt puppet partner of Israel presiding over shrinking fiefdoms while Israel annexes land and oppresses them with impunity. That's a geopolitical reality. Israel has closed off even the prospect of there ever being a point Z. In my opinion it's just weird and a bit schizophrenic to then not realize that if you've closed off the opportunity for there to ever be peace, you've by necessity created the logic for ethnic cleansing. That's the only other way to achieve "peace".
Gargantuan, gigantic, veeeery huuuuuge, immense, immoderate.
I think Jordan right now is the country in the world with the biggest number of refugees as a % of their own population living within their borders.
Maybe the highest in world history (not sure).
Something like if the UK took in 10-15 million refugees, or the USA took in 60-70m
Btw I thought you were a native English speaker.
"Monstrous number of X "
Monstrous is an adjective (in English they come before the word they refer to) that characterizes the noun "number", not X
I could say, support moderate factions by giving political gains by giving when those factions gain power while undermining extremist factions in the necessary ways, violent, political or otherwise. Be respectful of sovereignty generally and of the people specifically.
But there's already a group of people recognize Israel and eschew violence, the PA in the West Bank, and have they gotten a good faith partner is Israel? No, the PA is seen
Pay to slay still exists from Fata. The PA is better than Hamas but are hardly an ideal partner
We've tried that but they insist on firing rockets at Israel and they like to kidnap people and rape them
It doesn't seem to be working out
And they'll stop doing this after Israel kills 30,000 Palestinians and destroys the homes of a million people? Ya think that's going to work out?
PS remember months ago when you swore up and down the people would be allowed to return to their homes?
Gargantuan, gigantic, veeeery huuuuuge, immense, immoderate.
I think Jordan right now is the country in the world with the biggest number of refugees as a % of their own population living within their borders.
Maybe the highest in world history (not sure).
Something like if the UK took in 10-15 million refugees, or the USA took in 60-70m
Those things are not the same.
Speaking of theory of mind, the Egyptians and the Jordanians don't want the Palestinians and they don't want to go to either one of those countries but were still talking like 19 century imperialists who can't comprehend why the locals are being so ornery, and don't just go along with whatever imperial mandate is being handed down.
We're talking about Hamas having some kind of implacable irrational hatred of Jews and Israel, but somehow jus
Don't mistake my posts.
I'm not saying they become Egyptians today. That's as futile/impossible as saying "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free" imho (which is going to be impossible for them to achieve).
We're saying BACK THEN, that was the move and it made all the sense in the world (if you were a humanitarian and remotely practical).
Pay to slay still exists from Fata. The PA is better than Hamas but are hardly an ideal partner
And if they stopped that would West Bank annexes stop? Would the impunity stop? Come on. You're never going to have a perfect partner, but let's not pretend that if only they were better partners the problems for Palestinians would stop. That doesn't excuse any actions that the Palestinians are doing, only to say that if they were better, it's hard to say that it'd help. They're not going to be rewarded with being better partners. The end result will eventually be the same; either expulsion, death, or Bantustans.
I could say, support moderate factions by giving political gains by giving when those factions gain power while undermining extremist factions in the necessary ways, violent, political or otherwise. Be respectful of sovereignty generally and of the people specifically.
But there's already a group of people recognize Israel and eschew violence, the PA in the West Bank, and have they gotten a good faith partner is Israel? No, the PA is seen
Saying the PA was acting in good faith and Israel bad faith I think is not an accurate representation of history. But regardless, this is history. In 2024 there is no argument the PA would rule an autonomous Palestinian state. The people would never accept it. Some theocratic, militant group would always end up in charge (or in the least exist as a guerrilla state within a state like Hezbollah) and pose an immediate existential threat to Israel.
Even if we disagree on the why, it seems you acknowledge there is no point Z to get to at this point. So what are we even talking about by calling for a Palestinian state? Do you just want the Palestinians to be allowed to launch another major offensive and kill a few thousand more Israelis, before we end up back at the same place anyways? So at least the death count is more equal and you can feel better about it?
And they'll stop doing this after Israel kills 30,000 Palestinians and destroys the homes of a million people? Ya think that's going to work out?
Depends entirely what comes after.
What came after in West Germany seemed a fair bit better than what came before. This is obviously a far cry from that situation. The question is how it works out in 20-50 years. I guess we're going to find out right? We're here now. But Israel didn't need to continue one day longer in a world where Gaza was set up as a rocket staging site where your hostages are locked up. And no other country would be expected to.
Don't mistake my posts.
I'm not saying they become Egyptians today. That's as futile/impossible as saying "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free" imho (which is going to be impossible for them to achieve).
We're saying BACK THEN, that was the move and it made all the sense in the world (if you were a humanitarian and remotely practical).
Fair enough.
And they'll stop doing this after Israel kills 30,000 Palestinians and destroys the homes of a million people? Ya think that's going to work out?
PS remember months ago when you swore up and down the people would be allowed to return to their homes?
I swore they would be able to return to Gaza. It has to be rebuilt. I didn't say Israel wouldn't destroy the infrastructure. They had no choice
I don't suppose anyone's considered letting the Palestinians just stay where they are and not flattening their homes/schools/hospitals?
their leaders spend all their resources on rockets and rape. its not working out
hopefully they choose another route once hamas are extinguished to death
And if they stopped that would West Bank annexes stop? Would the impunity stop? Come on. You're never going to have a perfect partner, but let's not pretend that if only they were better partners the problems for Palestinians would stop. That doesn't excuse any actions that the Palestinians are doing, only to say that if they were better, it's hard to say that it'd help. They're not going to be rewarded with being better partners. The end r
If they had behaved better in the past things might have ended reasonably well for all parties.
At this time it's late, the best you can hope for Palestinians now is they get convinced to leave on their own for better pastures I guess.
