Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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I swore they would be able to return to Gaza. It has to be rebuilt. I didn't say Israel wouldn't destroy the infrastructure. They had no choice
ehhhh you'll get some push back from me here on how much had to be destroyed.
The IDF learned a lot over the course of the campaign, which is why in the last week they've probably had some of the lowest collateral damage of the war (and it should keep trending this way now). Vic will never reach the 100k+ dead he said in here.
And obviously 15k more bad guys at the start needed way more fire power. And they clearly chose the air force to keep IDF casualties low, which is also their prerogative (and the Americans would have totally done the same).
Still, I think we could envision a version where with better planning, quicker execution, less pandering to the USA, they have a faster, cleaner op. And I'm sad it went how it did because it could have gone differently.
One of the huge mistakes was stalling Rafah for the Americans. Boy was that useless. 4 months! Would already be all finished by now.
Saying the PA was acting in good faith and Israel bad faith I think is not an accurate representation of history. But regardless, this is history. In 2024 there is no argument the PA would rule an autonomous Palestinian state. The people would never accept it. Some theocratic, militant group would always end up in charge (or in the least exist as a guerrilla state within a state like Hezbollah) and pose an immediate existential threat t
Because, and this is very weird for me to say repeatedly and no one seems to contradict me, if you've closed off the avenue for a peaceful political solution then the only other avenue is going to be expulsion, death, or Bantustans for the Palestinians. If you believe that no matter what the people are going to be irrationally hell bent on killing everyone no matter what, that logic necessitates ethnic cleansing for peace.
All the wars between Israel and its Arab neighbors happened. Another one involving Hezbollah seems imminent. The 1st and 2nd Infintada happened. The West Bank settlements happened. Palestinian society is highly Islamicized and radicalized, and Israeli society has shifted rightward too.
Given the reality of what happened and is happening, what are we even talking about by recognizing a Palestinian state and talking about a 2 state solution? Who thinks this is going to happen? How do they think it happens?
It seems to all be just empty platitudes that dont recognize reality at all or serve any productive purpose. Even Biden's peace plan just seems like nonsense. Does anyone really think Hamas has a bunch of live hostages they are actually going to give Israel at some point to keep their part of any theoretical bargain? I dont. So what are we even talking about?
ehhhh you'll get some push back from me here on how much had to be destroyed.
The IDF learned a lot over the course of the campaign, which is why in the last week they've probably had some of the lowest collateral damage of the war (and it should keep trending this way now). And obviously 15k more bad guys at the start needed way more fire power. And they clearly chose the air force to keep IDF casualties low, which is also their prerogativ
Are you aware that many of your posts about the egregious and gratuitous acts of Israeli violence have the same buoyant, almost excited tone as your avatar?
Because it sucks, like italians in drove left Italy when things sucked, like people did all the times in the american territories when opportunity arose elsewhere.
Like everyone ancestor aside from natives did to populate the USA.
I am not saying they HAVE to.
I am saying if you care about their well being, you have to hope they do leave.
If they had behaved better in the last things might have ended reasonably well for all parties.
At this time it's late, the best you can hope for Palestinians now is they get convinced to leave on their own for better pastures I guess.
Because, and this is very weird for me to say repeatedly and no one seems to contradict me, if you've closed off the avenue for a peaceful political solution then the only other avenue is going to be expulsion, death, or Bantustans for the Palestinians. If you believe that no matter what the people are going to be irrationally hell bent on killing everyone no matter what, that logic necessitates ethnic cleansing for peace.
DING DING DING
Because it sucks, like italians in drove left Italy when things sucked, like people did all the times in the american territories when opportunity arose elsewhere.
Like everyone ancestor aside from natives did to populate the USA.
I am not saying they HAVE to.
I am saying if you care about their well being, you have to hope they do leave.
Italians weren't being ethnically cleansed, which was the point of your post: "they get convinced to leave".
As you care so much about Palestinians' well being I assume you'd welcome them (or some of them) in Italy? Or would you regard them as "no better than animals"?
Because, and this is very weird for me to say repeatedly and no one seems to contradict me, if you've closed off the avenue for a peaceful political solution then the only other avenue is going to be expulsion, death, or Bantustans for the Palestinians. If you believe that no matter what the people are going to be irrationally hell bent on killing everyone no matter what, that logic necessitates ethnic cleansing for peace.
No, decades of military occupation with swift executions of violent people can suffice, especially if aid isn't in Hamas hands anymore and any wife who wants to cook a meal for her children needs a husband who complies with the occupants
No, decades of military occupation with swift executions of violent people can suffice, especially if aid isn't in Hamas hands anymore and any wife who wants to cook a meal for her children needs a husband who complies with the occupants
Because, and this is very weird for me to say repeatedly and no one seems to contradict me, if you've closed off the avenue for a peaceful political solution then the only other avenue is going to be expulsion, death, or Bantustans (for those who survive) for the Palestinians. If you believe that no matter what the people are going to be irrationally hell bent on killing everyone no matter what, that logic necessitates ethnic cleansing for
DING DING DING
Italians weren't being ethnically cleansed, which was the point of your post: "they get convinced to leave".
As you care so much about Palestinians' well being I assume you'd welcome them in Italy? Or would you regard them as "no better than animals"?
Italians were being cleansed by hunger and disease and generic poverty which killed them in huge numbers.
At least in the areas that originated the biggest emigration waves.
I don't see my country as a charity but I would welcome them to come and TRY if I could write rules opening the border and not giving any welfare to those who come, try, and fail.
We have been through that iirc.
Pretty sure plenty Palestinians would mix well with Italian society and economy more than in other countries because we already have a huge well integrated Moroccan community, and a smaller but sizeable Egyptian community.
So they will find muslim-regulated food, mosques, people who speak their language to help them navigate Italian regulations and so on. Schools in Muslim heavy neighborhoods of big cities even have halal menu options.
Northern Africans in general are key workforce in hospitality and construction, two sectors where, at least in the rich cities in the north, we are desperate for workers. Industrial manufacturing has plenty of them as well.
For some reason they don't choose Italy though. There are like less than 2k of them right now. And that's even if it's legally easier for a Palestinian to come here than for a Tunisian or Algerian.
That is not generic death, but of course anyone who actually wages violence toward the state or plans to wage violence toward the state should be exterminated, that would be true even in normal societies domestically with troublemakers.
That's not a regime rather the very basic approach of rightwing law and order.
a relatively peaceful situation did exist thanks to israel's willingness to define an acceptable amount of indiscriminate civilian death and property damage from their neighbors, and absorbing it for decades
that fell apart when hamas went far beyond their allotment of violence on oct 7 with the rape, murder and abduction (and subsequent rape/murder) of about a thousand civilians
Why is "ethnic cleansing" of Palestinians so morally reprehensible to you, when in the last 80 years or so there has been numerous instances of such happenings; and there is even many "ethnic cleansings" going on today.
Have you ever thought of why this is so important to you; and you are so agnostic about what is going on in Sudan, Aizerbaijan, Turkey, Syria, etc.?
Of course cutting off the terror funding pipeline and facilitating the Palestinians that wish to move on for greener pastures is how this ends best for everyone. Sometimes letting the bad guys win (if you want to view Israel that way) is how things resolve best for everyone.
Turkey has been the undisputed king of genocide and ethnic cleansing in the last 100 years. And still is. No one is suggesting we have some moral imperative to stop them or undo their past actions. No one would benefit from this.
Turkey has been illegally holding North Cyprus for decades, after ethnically cleansing most of the non Muslim Turks who were living there. And the world has just peacefully moved on. There is no foreign funded generational resistance to change this.
a relatively peaceful situation did exist thanks to israel's willingness to define an acceptable amount of indiscriminate civilian death and property damage from their neighbors, and absorbing it for decades
that fell apart when hamas went far beyond their allotment of violence on oct 7 with the rape, murder and abduction (and subsequent rape/murder) of about a thousand civilians
How many times do we have to learn again that appeasement never works?
Because, and this is very weird for me to say repeatedly and no one seems to contradict me, if you've closed off the avenue for a peaceful political solution then the only other avenue is going to be expulsion, death, or Bantustans for the Palestinians. If you believe that no matter what the people are going to be irrationally hell bent on killing everyone no matter what, that logic necessitates ethnic cleansing for peace.
Are you of the opinion that Palestine wants a peaceful political solution? You keep repeating yourself like Israel is the ones who've eliminated any potential for peace when this most recent round of fighting happened after Palestine invaded Isreal
On the one hand, I can't imagine it's long now
On the other hand, Gaza was the Battle of the Bastards replay (for you GoT fans) where they went in with blind rage after getting popped, and might have benefited from a breather first (granted the hostage arguably couldn't wait).
I think Hezbollah might want the fight now. It's possible it makes more sense to bring it to them in a few months once Rafah is done and the troops have had some down time.
Palestinians in general but especially gazans do not want peace. The want Hamas, support oct 7, do not want the Un or Us involved in any transition
Then you force peace upon them. What is your proposed alternative? Expulsion? Extermination?
