Israel/Palestine thread

Gaza was already making more terrorists all the time.

I blame the parents who decided it was a good idea to bring new people into what most here seem to consider a prison.

What would you think of a woman in prison having a child, when she knew the child would have to be raised there?

Most people in the world support any violence against Jews. Nothing new to see here.

Can you offer any suggestions that point to a better strategy for Gaza than the status quo? Because right now, your suggestions could certainly be an improvement.

Because right now you have a jew hating knuckle dragging chicken hawk writing letters from an air conditioned location while sitting on his gold platted shitter that those dying will encourage more ̶l̶u̶n̶a̶t̶i̶c̶s̶ brave young men that will eventually bring victory, when it really did and was going to do was bring in body bags.

You are focused on the outcome, I am focused on the actions taken. In this case it is Israel not acting as a professional army, something which is directly under their control. The way I am labeling it is more accurate and more conducive to a discussion than your intentional ragebait.

This is still not a valid military operation, whereas freeing hostages is. So I won't even address the ridiculous logic about "they could have killed more" since my original point still stands. Which hostages were the 9/11 terrorists attempting to free when they crashed into the two towers?

I can't believe I have to explain this to... well anyone.

No. Per my original post you just offended people and showed your ridiculous bias on this subject. You didn't really make your point; swing and a miss.

Israel is not going to rid Gaza of Hamas. Even if in some unlikely way they managed to, Israel has already set the foundation for Hamas 2.0.

What is happening now is a very shortsighted attempt at making things better right now, with a complete disregard for the future. Israel would do better to withdraw and seek help with a long term solution, even if that makes things more difficult in the short term.

Luciom: not everyone that works for Hamas is as guilty of the crimes youre mentioning as you are suggesting. By saying they are actually removes blame for some of Hamas's more vile actions.

They force people to work for them. When a person is threatened, or their family, that is a major mitigating circumstance.

At some point you would think they would learn that attacking Israel is a bad idea.

J on this one I'd like you to consider the possibility that you are under-informed. It's a poker forum, so at least assign yourself some probability of this being possible.

Gaza has always been a lose lose for everyone involved. It's a hornet's nest of radicalization like a few other places in the Middle East and Africa. That's going to sound racist on its face, but you talk to hundreds of Arabs in positions of power in the Middle East and you will hear the same from them. For the Saudis for example, that is their view of the situation too (and part of why Egypt and Jordan won't touch the situation). Many people don't know this, but Egypt was PUMPED when they were able to be rid of Gaza in 67 (many a memoire covers this). MOST of the Iranian proxy regimes are deeply radicalized (if that is on a spectrum) like this one. Look at the gap between Gaza and the West Bank for example. Genetically the same people. Could not have a bigger gap in radicalization levels.

Does it make them deserving of death? No. Does it make their children's lives expendable? No! Do I want them to die? Absolutely not. But they would unquestionably have better lives being deradicalized, and focusing on bettering their day to day lives over waging a war that cannot be won. And a war that experts in the region fully consider religious, no matter what a mod wants to do in here.

What would a deradicalized Gaza look like? Well in a first phase it might look at lot like the West Bank, which isn't a pile of rubble right now. Then it would get huge global investment. Then it would get work permits. Then it would get even more foreign aid. Then it would get statehood after enough months of not being a launchpad for terror. Why couldn't deradicalized Gazans have lives as good as the Arabs living in Israel? I see no reason over a long enough timeline, the precedent is clearly there to achieve that at a minimum.

Dealing with Gaza is a waste of life (both sides), of money, of time, of opportunity, you name it. Nobody wants this. But 120 souls are still sitting there locked up in all manner of place (including body bags I guess), and terms to return them and end hostilities still haven't been agreed upon. So we've not seen the last rescue op if I had to guess.

Nobody is going to help Israel with a long term solution.

Nobody is going to stop sending aid to Gaza enriching Hamas. Nobody is going to stop Iran from arming Hamas. And nobody is going to help with governing (occupying if you want) Gaza.

The world, through action, has unequivocally said it wants Israel to keep taking punches in the face because it doesn’t want to see a bloody fight but it doesn’t want to do anything to get rid of the terrorists either.

We collectively left Israel no option other than to beat the Palestinians over and over until they give up fighting and start working with Israel in earnest to get a functional partnership going.

West Bank is already richer than most of the Muslim countries (especially if you exclude the big oil exporters.)

And btw, I think in the last few weeks there's been a half dozen (untouched) posts calling Israel, the only country Jews self-determine, a "**** hole" or terms like that one (in this thread and the mod thread).

So before any happy mod fingers get too frothy over " a hornet's nest of radicalization", which accomplished political analysts and scholars from both sides of the aisle often typically agree on, let's remember that "**** hole" was ok for describing the home of the Jews.

With all due respect, Bibi and his cronies are making Israel behave like total *******s to Gazan civilians in places where it’s completely unnecessary and counterproductive even for the short term goal of rescuing hostages.

Careful. That's a non-approved opinion.

I don't think it's a great idea to have kids here in the US given the cost of things and morality heading into the wrong direction. Now imagine living amongst terrorists in a warzone and thinking it's a good idea.

Well I hope to be allowed to participate because this place is my best option at being informed from intelligent and different viewpoints.

It doesn't come across as racist to me. But if we separate people from their state, I think Israeli citizenry are being put in existential danger by their state and people don't seem to see this.

I understand the narrative you explain, and I certainly see I don't have a reasonable vantage point to really verify truth, but I still think there are underlying motives beyond that narrative.

You swallow the narrative, and I think there is something else they were going after. Its a version of Vietnam from my view.

I like Bibi. I don't get the hate.

It's a shame the IDF lost a soldier in this rescue mission.

Right now I think we are slowly seeing another class of people arise to the forefront. People that are higher up in the political game but not so corrupt and therefore not so powerful etc.

They seem to be truly concerned we are headed for a bigger conflict. Its a different framework than your question speaks to.

Israel is in a VERY vulnerable position right now. I TRULY don't understand why you all don't see it and aren't talking about it.

How many different terrorist brigades are in Gaza? Throw in a little Hamas summer camp and I'd say the above statement is dead on.

I'd say Hamas and all the Palestinian intifadas have already set the foundation for Israeli settlers 2.0. This conflict cuts deep. The religious Zionists have dug in their heels deeper than ever. they will continue to expand in the West Bank. Palestinians are never coming home. Obviously this will cause them to continue to make bad decisions regarding their violent resistance.

I'm predicting a full scale assault and take over of the Temple Mount by fanatical Israelis citizens. I think this is gonna happen soon. The Arabs should have allowed more access to them. This is gonna get really nasty.

J, Israel has always been in existential danger. At no time has it not. You pick an era, it was in danger. This seven front war is a war of survival. Israel intelligence has known for some time, they just picked the wrong front to be the one to strike at them the way Hamas did.

But you know who else has always been in existential danger? Jews. Full stop, historically that's our story. We got together in this place after the 40's because of the last attempt to be rid of us. A partition plan with very fair sq km's relative to head count was devised. When looking at the amount of land the Jews abandoned in their homes in Iraq, Iran, Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, etc, this split was more than fair when we consider how things like India/Pakistan were divided. And still even more than fair when we consider how much of the earth Muslims self-determine.

When you look at X, all everyone wants is self-determination for the Palestinians. But the Jews self-determining is ethno-something. You can't make sense of it, how Japan can be Japan, but how Israel cannot. How Gaza should be Gaza, but Israel cannot. The "rules" don't make sense side by side because people want two sets of them.

And btw the Vietnam thing, it's an Iran thing. That region flows through Iranian influence. They prop up Assad, The Houthis, Hezbollah, Hamas, the militias in Iraq, keep going down the list looking for regimes that destabilize and move economies backwards and turn states into failed ones. This is a war of ideas, religion, and ideologies. Israel reps western values, Iran and Hamas are having none of that.

I'd only just begun reading up on the recruitment and training camps for Hamas that do 15-21 year olds. I'll be honest I didn't know the extent of the roles the 15-16-17 year olds played. There have been some mind blowing pieces I've been reading. I'll post some tomorrow.

I just don't know what to do with that fact. Putting an weapon in a 16 year old's hands is just more than I can conceive.

And btw the Israeli settler side is BAD too. I get just as many nightmares from that issue.

I understand this yes and sympathize with it. I'm thinking of a bigger thing though. That Israel's existence in its current form I think heavily relies on US political support.

I see a trap building in that regard.

I don't think this is true and if anything I think we've seen very much the opposite. The problem is that nobody is going to help Israel with Israel's long term solution. Israel needs to be willing to compromise.

I think the point that no one is going to stop Iran and nobody is going to help with governing (or occupying) are false largely because of the first sentence: "Nobody is going to stop sending aid to Gaza enriching Hamas."

Countries do not want to invest into a system that is going to attack Israel again, resulting in their investment being blown up again and thereby requiring even further investments. The incentives are there, and some countries recognize that this kind of destabilization is not good; there are countries willing to help, Israel needs to figure out how they can work together.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/un-...

China agreeing and even Russia soft agreeing is pretty big.