Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Last time I tried to watch a video linked by someone on #teamdeepcleanse it lasted over an hour and despite me asking they failed to set a start point.
If you can relink yours and set a start point I'll watch it if it's a reasonable length.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAr9oGSX...
Maybe use a faster playback speed if an hour is too long. They had an awful lot to work with. An hour strikes me as them doing a pretty tight edit.
This is how we wind up with masked bigots protesting the Nova exhibit in New York, which was just honoring innocent dead young peaceniks.
You HAVE to justify the rape (by saying it didn't happen) to make this thing work in your mind. You have to justify that a Kibbutz is a military target. That the hostages were fair game military targets. That no babies got killed or taken.
You have to do these mental gymnastics, because if you don't you r
Said without a trace of irony.
Btw i am 90% sure the UN report didn't find systematic rape of palestinian women by the IDF, rather use of sexual violence as a form of torture/humilation (think Abu Ghraib ) of terrorists.
Now, you can morally decry torture of terrorists as a grave violation if you want, but it's not the same as the rape of civilian women at all at least not for me and many other people.
Like not everyone thinks terrorists have human rights at all
Wasn't it agreed a few days ago that this happens in every war and as long as it wasn't ordered by the superiors it's no big deal?
No one's thinking it's no big deal. The argument was whether it was orchestrated mass rape or individual attacks of the type that do happen in most wars. But then you already knew that.
We now know that both sides are guilty of the worst crimes against women imaginable, sick ****ers the lot of them.
This is how we wind up with masked bigots protesting the Nova exhibit in New York, which was just honoring innocent dead young peaceniks.
You HAVE to justify the rape (by saying it didn't happen) to make this thing work in your mind. You have to justify that a Kibbutz is a military target. That the hostages were fair game military targets. That no babies got killed or taken.
You have to do these mental gymnastics, because if you don't you r
Kibbutzes are legal targets due to their material support of IDF conflicts, the weapons they keep on hand and the military communication hub they offer to IDF
Please stop saying military and use legal. You’re trying to make it seem like it’s unethical or illegal to target these places. It’s not.
If you don’t want to get attacked then don’t be a militarily significant target. It’s really that simple. If I handed out m16s and let hanas use my telephones I wouldn’t be surprised if IDF killed me.
I certainly wouldn’t complain about it and make it seem like IDF is acting illegally
No one's thinking it's no big deal. The argument was whether it was orchestrated mass rape or individual attacks of the type that do happen in most wars. But then you already knew that.
We now know that both sides are guilty of the worst crimes against women imaginable, sick ****ers the lot of them.
hm not really? vast majority of IDF sexual violence if not all was against men (according to the UN report which has 0 credibility for us ofc).
Your own sources don't confirm your claims.
The UN confirms hamas systematically raped israeli civilian women. The UN confirms the IDF used sexual violence/abuse OF MEN as a form of torture a lot.
It's not the same thing.
give me the point where the UN claims that IDF systematically raped WOMEN. They list public nudity humiliation as the main culprit btw, do you have any photo of palestinian WOMEN stripped naked and paraded around?
They do claim this explicitly for Hamas though
/The Commission identified patterns indicative of sexual violence and concluded that these were not isolated incidents but perpetrated in similar ways in several locations primarily against Israeli women.
The report for people suddenly unable to click a mouse:
In relation to Israeli military operations and attacks in Gaza, the Commission found that Israeli authorities are responsible for the war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare, murder or wilful killing, intentionally directing attacks against civilians and civilian objects, forcible transfer, sexual violence, torture and inhuman or cruel treatment, arbitrary detention and outrages upon personal dignity.
The Commission found that the crimes against humanity of extermination, gender persecution targeting Palestinian men and boys, murder, forcible transfer, and torture and inhuman and cruel treatment were also committed.
The immense numbers of civilian casualties in Gaza and widespread destruction of civilian objects and infrastructure were the inevitable result of a strategy undertaken with intent to cause maximum damage, disregarding the principles of distinction, proportionality and adequate precautions. The intentional use of heavy weapons with large destructive capacity in densely populated areas constitutes an intentional and direct attack on the civilian population.
The report found that statements made by Israeli officials – including those reflecting the policy of inflicting widespread destruction and killing large numbers of civilians – amounted to incitement and may constitute other serious international crimes. Direct and public incitement to genocide is a crime under international law whenever perpetrated, even by persons with no direct authority for the conduct of the hostilities. Incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence is a serious violation of international human rights law and may amount to an international crime.
Although Israel issued hundreds of evacuation orders to people in north Gaza and other locations, the Commission found that they were at times insufficient, unclear and conflicting, and did not provide adequate time for safe evacuations. Furthermore, the evacuation routes and the areas designated as safe were consistently attacked by Israeli forces. All of this, the Commission determined, amounted to forcible transfer.
The Commission determined that Israel’s imposed a “total siege” which amounts to collective punishment against the civilian population. Israeli authorities have weaponized the siege and used the provision of life-sustaining necessities, including by severing water, food, electricity, fuel and humanitarian assistance, for strategic and political gains. The siege has disproportionately impacted pregnant women and persons with disabilities, with serious harm inflicted on children leading to preventable child deaths from starvation including newborns.
The report found that specific forms of sexual and gender-based violence constitute part of Israeli Security Forces’ operating procedures. It made the finding due to the frequency, prevalence and severity of the violations, which include public stripping and nudity intended to humiliate the community at large and accentuate the subordination of an occupied people.
In the West Bank, the Commission found that Israeli forces committed acts of sexual violence, torture and inhuman or cruel treatment and outrages upon personal dignity, all of which are war crimes. Furthermore, the Commission found that the government of Israel and Israeli forces permitted, fostered and instigated a campaign of settler violence against Palestinian communities in the West Bank.
In relation to the attack of 7 October in Israel, the report found that the military wing of Hamas and six other Palestinian armed groups, are responsible for the war crimes of intentionally directing attacks against civilians, murder or wilful killing, torture, inhuman or cruel treatment, destroying or seizing the property of an adversary, outrages upon personal dignity, and taking hostages, including children.
The indiscriminate firing of thousands of projectiles towards Israeli towns and cities resulting in death and injury of civilians are also violations of international humanitarian and human rights law.
Members of Palestinian armed groups, in some instances aided by Palestinians in civilian clothing, deliberately killed, injured, tortured, took hostages, including children, and committed sexual and gender-based violence against civilians and against members of the Israeli Security Forces, some of whom were hors de combat and should not have been targeted.
The Commission identified patterns indicative of sexual violence and concluded that these were not isolated incidents but perpetrated in similar ways in several locations primarily against Israeli women.
In its recommendations, the report calls on the Government of Israel to immediately implement a ceasefire, end the siege of Gaza, ensure the delivery of humanitarian aid and cease the targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure. The Commission calls on Israel to comply fully with its legal obligations set forth in the International Court of Justice orders on provisional measures issued on 26 January 2024, 28 March 2024 and 24 May 2024 and, in particular, allow the Commission access to Gaza to conduct investigations. It also recommended that all State Parties to the Rome Statute cooperate fully with the International Criminal Court.
The report calls on the Government of the State of Palestine and the de-facto authorities in Gaza to immediately cease all rocket attacks on Israel, unconditionally release all hostages, and thoroughly and impartially investigate violations and prosecute those responsible for crimes, including those committed on and since 7 October by members of Palestinian non-State armed groups in Israel.
The Commission’s report will be presented to the Human Rights Council’s 56th session on 19 June 2024 in Geneva. Two additional detailed reports providing expanded findings accompany this release. The first report presents the Commission’s findings on the 7 October attack in Israel, and the second report presents the Commission’s findings on Israel’s military operations and attacks in Gaza until the end of 2023.
Which is what confirms the UN found hamas systematically raped. While the squirrel claimed the opposite and you did as well before i pointed out it was a lie.
Can't backtrack, you simply posted a complete lie about a purported exoneration of Hamas from the charge of mass rapes, which instead the UN hamas political allies confirmed had happened.
Now you want to claim the UN claims IDF raped the same. Except they claim IDF used sexual violence, but with men.
Ofc you can claim that's morally the same, but you know it won't be for most people. As bad as someone can consider torture of an actual terrorist, they don't consider it as bad as mass raping civilian women.
Btw i am 90% sure the UN report didn't find systematic rape of palestinian women by the IDF, rather use of sexual violence as a form of torture/humilation (think Abu Ghraib ) of terrorists.
Now, you can morally decry torture of terrorists as a grave violation if you want, but it's not the same as the rape of civilian women at all at least not for me and many other people.
Like not everyone thinks terrorists have human rights at all
Didn't expect to see a "actually, torturing detainees with sexual violence is cool" post ITT. You know, despite living through the Forever Wars, I don't remember seeing such an explicit endorsement of American-sytle torture practices.
The report for people suddenly unable to click a mouse:
In relation to Israeli military operations and attacks in Gaza, the Commission found that Israeli authorities are responsible for the war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare, murder or wilful killing, intentionally directing attacks against civilians and civilian objects, forcible transfer, sexual violence, torture and inhuman or cruel treatment, arbitrary detention and outrages
Yes this is from the link i provided to you to prove the squirrel was lying.
And this doesn't say that the IDF raped palestinian women, try to read again. It means the IDF put stuff in the ass of some terrorists, stripped them naked, tortured their genitals and so on.
do you understand the difference?
It doesn't specify the gender of all the victims of IDF war crimes that you and other apologists here excused or denied.
Utterly disgusting posts itt.
Didn't expect to see a "actually, torturing detainees with sexual violence is cool" post ITT. You know, despite living through the Forever Wars, I don't remember seeing such an explicit endorsement of American-sytle torture practices.
stop inventing claims. Just stop. One liners denying what you read , every single time. Why?
claim is torturing terrorist is not even close in gravity to raping innocent civilians. Not even the same cathegory of immoral action, a completly different topic, mixed togheter to give the impression IDF went around raping palestinian women wantonly. Which it didn't, while hamas did exactly that to Israeli women.
You can claim i am morally wrong but STOP INVENTING STUFF EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Yes this is from the link i provided to you to prove the squirrel was lying.
And this doesn't say that the IDF raped palestinian women, try to read again. It means the IDF put stuff in the ass of some terrorists, stripped them naked, tortured their genitals and so on.
do you understand the difference?
This thread has taken a fascinating turn. Forced butt stuff isn't rape?
It doesn't specify the gender of all the victims of IDF war crimes that you and other other apologists here excused or denied.
I deny war crimes can happen when it's not a war legally as Gaza isn't a state. I don't care what kangaroo courts with judges from countries that hate Israel think on the matter either.
So think about it: it does specify the gender of the victims of Hamas raping. But it doesn't for IDF sexual violence. GUESS WHY? because IDF is accused of having used sexual violence / intimidation / torture with actual terrorists it had in captivity. Not with civilian palestinian women.
You wanted to present the idea that IDF raped a lot of palestinian civilian women. You falsely claimed that's what the UN report says. It doesn't.
Hamas mass raped israeli civilian women. IDF didn't mass rape palestinian civilian women. That's what the UN report found.
Btw to be clear, we have no reason to believe any claim by the UN on the topic.
It's just that even the UN, allies of Hamas and enemies of the state of Israel, did confirm that Hamas mass raped women and that the IDF did not. EVEN THEM!
And some people want to claim the opposite... I wonder why...
It started 1 hour ago with "UN claims Hamas didn't mass rape while IDF did". At the end, it's the opposite.
stop inventing claims. Just stop. One liners denying what you read , every single time. Why?
claim is torturing terrorist is not even close in gravity to raping innocent civilians. Not even the same cathegory of immoral action, a completly different topic, mixed togheter to give the impression IDF went around raping palestinian women wantonly. Which it didn't, while hamas did exactly that to Israeli women.
You can claim i am morally wrong bu
You do understand that terrorists are civilians and that if they haven’t been tried in a court of law, they are innocent.
So yes, they are innocent civilians
You understand that now, yes?
You do understand that terrorists are civilians and that if they haven’t been tried in a court of law, they are innocent.
So yes, they are innocent civilians
You understand that now, yes?
I understand that's what you claim you think.
I do not agree with it at all and i don't care about why you claim to think what you wrote on the topic tbh.
Anyway, still men, not women.
You know what the game is and why they muddle the picture when reporting on the report (not the first time). Even if you think torturing men prisoners genitals is bad, it's a different kind of bad than raping women civilians in their home or in the streets.
For many many many people, the latter done systematically means you are the worst possible kind of human being. There never is any justification in any model to allow that. For the torturer of prisoners, even if bad, it's totally different, doing bad things to incredibly bad people isn't the same as raping innocent women, for most people.
Let's be clear, torturing captured terrorists is a tough spot. They have operational intelligence vital to freeing hostages or preventing attacks. It gets very tricky figuring out what's just there and what's not. But let's also be clear, most of the countries in the Middle East have some form of it (certainly the whole of the Axis does).
And if you want the most extreme form, you need only look at Sinwar.
Sinwar went to jail because he systematically tortured and then murdered his OWN people. They did it in the basement of the hospital no less. They'd torture these people for weeks, the worst medieval stuff you've heard of. Before ENDING them.
If you back 'Free Palestine" you back that guy, and THOSE methods. He should have done life in prison for that. He was lucky for the prisoner swap, and it's why Israel is so hesitant on the next one.
