Israel/Palestine thread

lol none of the Kibbutz attacked Oct 7th had anything remotely close to military manufacturing. He found a Kibbutz in the north that very much makes armour plating, it's not a hidden fact. They made plastics in the 80s and the IDF gave them large contracts for protective armor. The factor is still run by and serviced by civilians. But we're getting way in the weeds, because of the hundreds and hundreds of kibbutzim in Israel, a tiny handful have such manufacturing. And like I said, they make and sell kevlar and guidance software for drones near where I live. Do I live in a military target?

Campfirewest, please take a timeout from the thread until 12:00 AM Eastern Time for personal attacks. Thank you.

About half of you are one post away from a timeout as well. If you think you're in that half, maybe tread lightly. ♥

Sounds very peaceful ����������

They manufacturer devices of war, they are used to store guns/ammo and they are used as communication centers

If you live near a power plant you live near a legal target. Do you really not know that? Of course making stuff for drones that kill people makes you a legal target. You don’t have to be a military target to be a legal target.

its farms

Pw, i get that youre trying to rationalize a reasoning to take out israel but the majority of silicon valley tech has a far more prominent with greater military contracts and direct funding than your avg kibbutz. And that doesnt include transportation services or the firearms sector that you pretended to be a part of.

You may as well just make the case that everyone is a legit target because your local library is a legit target based on your imagination atm.

I don’t understand your point

Your point is that the US has legal targets that are more dangerous than kibbutzes

So?

My point is that you dont actually believe that kibbutzes are legal targets are even a threat but that you just want them wiped out.

If you're near people who own small arms, you're a human shield and it's okay to kill you. Or at least that's the logic that's been bandied about ITT.

you think anything labeled kibbutz CANT be a target. Thats the problem with your thinking.

I looked at the geneva conventions rules on legal targets and then checked to see if what you call "kibbutzes" fit the definition.

have you checked to see if they fit the definition?

I didnt know what kibbutzes were 6 months ago, are you saying in the last six months I have been made aware of something and then I decided I want to destroy them?

according to the Geneva convention PW posts are legal targets /s

You can justify this however you want, but the reality is that if you believe the second half of this post (below) then you believe the law protects the CIVILIANS who were partying SOMEWHAT NEARBY, but importantly no so close nearby that they were unavoidable collateral damage (for the already unlawlful terrorist attack).

You don't believe in these laws or else you wouldn't be justifying murdering civilians.

I have explained the kibbutz issue to you before. Just because a kibbutz, at some point in history, was a legal military target, this does not make all kibbutzes legal terrorist targets. There is no "they are legal military targets" because there is no "they" because they are always looked at on an individual basis, and when 10/7 is looked at on an individual basis, all of the kibbutzes were civilian targets, victims of a terrorist attack.

The Nova festival was not a "civilian buffer zone" like you previously suggested. Hamas was not required to kill the civilians there to complete their questionable military goals. Have you ever been on a highway? Have you ever seen a festival occur on the highway, preventing cars from reaching their destination? The festival was taking place OFF the highway, where Hamas made an intentional, planned, premeditated, diversion in order to murder as many civilians as possible during their terrorist attack.

Here let's try your method of making sure we are all finally on the same page:

You understand this right? RIGHT??? Yes or no.

I understand those are your view points and that you glossed over the military benefits the kibbutzes are used for.

I’m sure Hamas murdered all of the civilians on purpose. It’s also possible they didn’t but that’s unlikely. Anyway I said these things are possible. I haven’t looked at a map so how could I have an opinion about it.

I simply argue the theoretics and ask myself would it be ok for the IDF to attack Palestinians if the sides switched.

Would I think it’s ok for IDF to bomb villages that make body armor, are used as military communication hubs as well as weapons storage?

Yes

Hamas isn't the legitimate ruler of a country that declared war to another country so PW is talking about a fictional scenario that has no relationship with reality.

You aren't just arguing theoretics, you DO have an opinion and you've shared it multiple times: killing civilians on October 7 was a legal act. Am I alone in interpreting your posts this way? If I am then I apologize.

If you need to look at a map then look at a map. If you need to do some research to figure out which of the kibbutzes were doing the things you claim all kibbutzes do then you should do that as well, because your opinion is justifying terrorism and murdering civilians.

It's clear how this opinion was arrived at: you came to your conclusion first then you started searching for evidence. This is how you found out about kibbutzes from the 40s and that at some point in time some were manufacturing military equipment: you were searching for ways to justify your conclusion, so you warped this fact into a weak justification.

A better way of doing this would be look at the exact examples: look at what happened on October 7th and then decide if it was a legal military action. (It was not.) There's no need to equivocate. There's no need to give poor examples in order to justify.

I said it could be a legal act, and I said I didn’t know. I haven’t looked at a map, as I said previously. I don’t need to look at anything because I don’t care to have a solid opinion about this. It changes nothing if Hamas was there to murder civilians or not. They are still an awful organization that exploits the population for their mutual benefit.

I didn’t say all kibbutzes either. I said in theory it could be legal due to xyz.

I was open minded and still am. Unfortunately the more I learn about kinbutzes the more I learn they were used to launch attacks on the British, are used to make billions of dollars of military tech, they store weapons and are used as communication hubs.

The IDF occupation and genocide of Gaza’s/Palestinians has been illegal since at least 2006. They have slaughtered over 50k people since then and jailed thousands without fair trial.

I do not think Oct 7 changes anything and I will not let it be used as a justification for IDF action

Bunch of cowards in the thread refusing to own up to their own rather transparent opinions.

Yet more cowards grudgingly admit Hamas started the war but nonetheless demand Israel cave into Hamas’ demands, all but guaranteeing another 10/7.

On the other side, there are cowards refusing to admit Bibi is a ****ing shithead that’s causing more Palestinian deaths and suffering than necessary. Yet more have acknowledged Bibi is a shithead but………. war time?

On the scale of evil and responsibility for Palestinian deaths, Hamas still bears way more responsibility in my opinion but Bibi has done a lot to balance the scale quite a bit. Israel would do well to get rid of Bibi and prosecute the war against Hamas more humanely.

I will also even go out on a limb and say a long term Israeli occupation of Gaza has become every living Gazan’s best hope at seeing a functioning Gazan/Palestinian state within their life time. The less shithead Bibi gets to run the war, the shorter the occupation will need to be.

What irony is that?

Who are these cowards?

I'm guessing I am lumped in with the cowards demanding Israel cave, which I don't agree with but can understand. That post accurately describes a lot of people.

If caving means stopping doing something both monsterous and stupid then count me in

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/...

This has plenty on Israeli war crimes as well and I suggest reading the entire article. I am highlighting the following because it pertains to a conversation that we just had ITT, a conversation which has been repeated several times despite it being extremely straightforward.

The report you pasted here certainly does not say that.