The costs of trans visibility

Ostracism produces negative psychological outcomes in any age group, though the effects are probably more pronounced the earlier the age. But I'm really not sure why you think that it's only psychologically damaging for children to be treated poorly and excluded by their peers, because that definitely is not the case

Social acceptance being associated with better mental health outcomes doesn't mean that social acceptance is a cure for suicidal ideation, sure. But social acceptance is pretty clearly one piece of the puzzle in terms of reliable indicators of overall mental wellbeing in transgender people

A lot of the lack of social acceptance of trans people doesn't even necessarily have to do with them having a transgender identity, in a lot of places it's the very significant and obvious gender/sex nonconformity that some people have a problem with. It's pretty much homophobia. Should be a no-brainer that gay and trans people are less likely to want to kill themselves if they aren't being disowned by family members, routinely treated poorly by service workers, or harassed on the street by bigots

its the entitlement that gets to the service workers. If a bigot can harass a trans in the street, the trans isn't doing a good enough job being trans...

Once the door to suicidal ideation has been opened, the mental foundation has been exposed as unstable. Once the truth is revealed, you can’t go ever fully go back to the illusion.

Individual growth and transformation will lead to a rock solid mental foundation, but you have to go through deep identity crisis. Gender transition is a false substitution.

You’re right that young children need to be affirmed and accepted, but as a human being with potential due to having a soul. Trying to construct mental well being on a cracked foundation by building a bubble of social acceptance will not work. It just leads to the moral panic and tyranny we see from activists.

The social self is the problem, not the solution. Individuation is the solution, but the social self will actively sabotage it.

How do we know when it’s time to stop catering to the social self for a person in distress? Suicidal ideation.

Suicidal ideation is the flashing red light which indicates the foundation has been exposed. It’s time to roll up the sleeves, stop with the half measures, and get serious.

lol is this bait?

I mean, am I wrong?

Well, yeah lol

As far as the service workers, I was talking about the service workers that will treat someone poorly just because they're markedly sex/gender nonconforming. Not the service workers who will treat a person poorly because that person is a lunatic who screamed at the service worker for calling them "sir." That kind of thing is pretty rare, while a service worker being rude to a male person in a dress because they're a male person in a dress is way more common

And I was talking about a homophobic bigot harassing someone for being markedly sex/gender nonconforming, not necessarily for being trans, but if you would non-ironically place the blame on the trans person for "not being trans enough" or whatever, then that's pretty hilarious

Great posts and hope to see more of you in this forum.

However, I must point out that a lot of discussion revolves arround the fanatical end of pro trans.

It seems like most people who are not religious or whatever dismiss fanatical anti-trans ideologues. Most, outside of those circles, are fine with marriage, adoption. Would oppose workplace discrimination, including for things like teaching. Believe you should treat trans people according to their preferences etc. It's not really debated outside of the fanatical circles.

Fanatical, and almost patiently insane claims from the other side weirdly are debated. Most understand that sports are segregated due to biological sex, rather than gender identity for obvious reasons. But it remains a contentious issue. Perhaps partly because the analogs of Pat Robertson are sometimes college professors? IDK.

I've had this discussion with lots of lefty friends and we almost unanimously realize, it is silly to have a culture war over literally a few dozen physical males who wish to compete in womens sports, and that this just a silly idea that should be scrapped. All it does is give ammo to the right and distract from things that matter.

Polls show only 26% support for this idea and as the discussion unfolds support goes down, yet the debate rages on.

Maybe the onus is on us to say, "OK, Ok, obviously a six four person with a penis who claims to be a lesbian shouldn't play women's sports. Now let's move on."

Wreckem713 will return to us in 48 hours. Transphobic rhetoric is not permissible on this forum, and victim blaming a trans person being harassed for not passing is not acceptable posting.

most of those are corrective, like cleft lips, repairing damage from a car accident, etc

The reason I asked you to clarify is because this position which is held by most buying in to gender ideology appears to fall apart when you take a closer look

4 out of 5 kids who question gender ‘grow out of it’: Transgender expert

https://nypost.com/2023/02/22/four-out-o...

If your theory was true I don't see how even a fraction of 80% wouldn't squash it. There's no significant I-was-having-sex-with-guys phase that men grow out of, right? This is obviously different. In the trans group we have severely elevated anxiety, depression, 7x autism rate, and strong evidence of social contagion. For a massive portion of trans youth, it's just a phase. This doesn't look anything like homosexuality. In fact, of the trans youth that grow out of it, the odds they end up just being a homosexual is very high. Why is that? Why didn't they just phase out of trans and become heterosexual at even close to an average rate?

https://link.springer.com/article/10.100...

Hopefully the above has answered this question for you

Also this is happening and if someone doesn't find it disgusting then I'm not sure their moral compass can be repaired

I don't want to get too deep into such a debate now as I really need to get ready for bed, but I don't know that I agree with this in full. We know that many who identify as trans when young don't years later. I'm sure there are multiple reasons for this as different people will have taken different journeys to that point, but I wouldn't rule out that some of them are trying out that identity to fit into a certain peer group only to later realize that's not really them. I see similar in some of those self-diagnosing as having Autism. Of course, this shouldn't be used to say that some people aren't really transgender or that some people don't really have Autism.

Then I will bow out from the thread, I don't want to be a source of contention if this thread is already covered

And...?

The point is that the age of 21 was thrown out there for...I don't know what reason. And neither do you. The only things I know of 21 being a limit for in the US are drinking and gambling, and how effective is that? I don't know that there's an effective limit of 21 for anything. And why should there be? Are they adults at 18 or not?

I expect you missed what the "cute" point actually was, which was that you were offering up an authoritative declaration about something you don't have a ****ing clue about. But of course you've doubled down on that, suggesting that anyone who thinks transgender surgery benefited them at all is lying to themselves. What an amazingly ****ing clownshoes position to take, and I'm not remotely surprised you've since gotten yourself banned for transphobic rhetoric.

So this all sounds very reasonable in theory, but sadly doesn't work so well in practice.

This thread is a great example. I don't know if there's a single person ITT that has expressed a strong feeling that we need to accommodate "a few dozen physical males who wish to compete in womens sports" or said anything contrary to "obviously a six four person with a penis who claims to be a lesbian shouldn't play women's sports", and yet we still have the same handful of extreme examples trotted out over and over again. Are there a small minority of people who push for the extremes? Sure, and it's frustrating because these culture wars mean every time that happens, it'll be used as some kind of demonstration of how commonplace those extremes are, regardless of whether that's true or not. What we can do about this, I have no idea.

It didn't, and I'm not sure why you would think it had. There was nothing that provided a reason there should be a limit at age 18, 19, 21, 23, or any other age.

A lot of people seem to want to answer for BSumner. My working theory was that it was a rather arbitrary choice on their part, but I don't want to assume anything.

I think it would make more sense to have a uniform age requirement for doing all the adult things.

However, as that is not the case in the US, I think it is reasonable to choose the oldest of the bunch to make what most people consider to be more important than any of the others.

uh? so what's your take for someone who identifies as transgender then later in life doesn't anymore. Is that person trans, or not, or was that person trans before then became non-trans? is it then possible to stop being trans when adult? really?

Someone wrote a paper on it and had it published I'm pretty sure.

Is it your opinion that kids can't influence other kids in these matters?

Famously trans-phobic media "The Economist", a far right publication only read by MAGA people worldwide, on how "science" was manipulated by trans-activists.

https://www.economist.com/united-states/...

And of course

Another document recently unsealed shows that Rachel Levine, a transwoman who is assistant secretary for health, succeeded in pressing wpath to remove minimum ages for the treatment of children from its 2022 standards of care. Dr Levine’s office has not commented. Questions remain unanswered, but none of this helps wpath’s claim to be an organisation that bases its recommendations on science.

They decide what to publish, they decide the guidelines, then claim that's "science" and so opponents can't disagree.

Same as with the insane claims about mask mandate efficacies and all the rest during covid

The trans issue exposes the limits of what science can offer regarding issues of the mind and identity since science excludes the soul.

It’s the story of the soul which calls for the marginalized and distressed to seek their fundamental identity. Within the framework of Darwinian evolution, the distressed are in need of social acceptance and cohesion because it’s all about survival. In the story of the soul, it’s about actualization, not just survival.

Currently, we are operating in this muddled, in between space. Trans are using language like “actualizing their true self” but health care continues to exclude the soul. This can’t sustain. People with gender dysphoria and suicidal ideation have at least one foot in the story of the soul. Only people who are willing to (consciously) go down to that level can be helpful.

That's not acceptable moderating, since there was no actual person involved, and the offence was purely against your own vanity as an individual committed to a certain ideology.

I personally think adults have the right to make their own choices which also includes mistakes

That said, you asked for a reason and the link to research I provided definitely offers a reason. The text and graphs show that significant change in feeling trans still happens at and passed 18.

I hope people are starting to see how damaging and dangerous this mentality is.

Why are gender clinics closing down in Europe so long after their radical and reckless practices had been exposed? How did it take so long to reverse the ruling that allowed Liah Thomas to ruin womens swimming for women? How did we get in the situation in the video I shared where a 14 year old can transition without parental involvement after a few minute visit with the doctor?

The reason all of this happened and has continued is because radicals have savaged the reputation of anyone speaking up. Attacking their career. Bullying people in to silence and compliance. Made it against the rules to even question the ideology.

The transitioning 14 is exactly what you get with "gender affirming care". The conclusion is in the name. It's really not assessment or "care". It would be like taking your child to certain churches and asking them to assess if they may be gay

Bringing up European policy towards gender is transphobic and not allowed in this thread.

I just wanna say that everytime I load 2p2 and see this thread I think to myself "man that is a dumb thread, I cannot imagine thinking thoughts like that"

and yet there are 76 pages

You are allowed to discuss European policies about something only when they are to the left of american policies