Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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I question the veracity of this tweet.
That being said I think it is generally Israel's position over the years, over various govts but especially the current one, to punish what they consider Palestinian/Arab aggression (starting wars, Infintadas, suicide bombings, kidnappings, murder sprees, attacking troops, attacking Jewish civilians who go into Palestinian areas) by taking more land and squeezing them harder.
And if you want to criti
The west bank land grabs show that Israel also isn't all that interested in long term peace.
Between all the bans and finger pointing, I think people are getting a little lost in the fact that Hamas refuses to budge and the rest of the world is moving onto talking about what occupation of Gaza will look like.
And it's pretty clear even the Arab states realize it will be a long term counterinsurgency operation.
And of course nobody wants any part of it so the Israelis (I refuse to say just Israeli government/IDF or whatever here, I re
and it's not stable.
Israel desperately needs a political solution. They are being badly let down by leadership that pushes military or occupation solutions. It's folly.
Between all the bans and finger pointing, I think people are getting a little lost in the fact that Hamas refuses to budge and the rest of the world is moving onto talking about what occupation of Gaza will look like.
And it's pretty clear even the Arab states realize it will be a long term counterinsurgency operation.
And of course nobody wants any part of it so the Israelis (I refuse to say just Israeli government/IDF or whatever here, I re
As long as Hamas (and various other Iranian supported militant groups such as PIJ) is there it is a lose/lose for anyone to get involved. Hamas has zero tolerance for anyone that threatens their total grip on Gaza and will torture/kill them. So you have to worry about your own people getting tortured/killed. And because of how Hamas embeds itself in the civilian population and uses them as shields, removing them would involve a lot of collateral damage, that would be a giant PR hit from the outside world, which IMO is way too comfortable and supporting of the Hamas dictatorship.
So it is up to Israel to on its own try to remove Hamas from the equation, so real options can be tried. And most of world's elites realize this and accept it. Even if the common people themselves are calling for Israel to unconditionally leave Gaza.
And the IRI for its part is going to use its proxies to create as much chaos, death and destruction in the Arab world as it can; for its own perceived gain.
The west bank land grabs show that Israel also isn't all that interested in long term peace.
Or you could interpret it as them accepting Palestinian leadership over the last 80 years has never been a good faith partner in pursuing peace, so they are just going to unilaterally impose conditions they find acceptable.
There was 2 Infintadas, and in their minds the Israel govt is creating a equilibrium where there will never be a 3rd. And with Gaza they seem to be taking a similar approach. Create an environment where an actor like Hamas can never get so strong and militarily powerful again.
And when I say "they" I acknowledge Israel society isn't a monolith; and this is mostly right wing govts that benefit politically from land grabbing.
and it's not stable.
Israel desperately needs a political solution. They are being badly let down by leadership that pushes military or occupation solutions. It's folly.
Hamas has never budged from its position that as long as it is around there will be no political solutions other than to fully accept their ultimatum for how the future will go. And they are indifferent to the present or future prospects of the people living in Gaza.
So if their ultimatums are a non starter; then that doesn't really lend to a political solution. Maybe Israel's hope is that if Hamas gets weak enough it will agree to leave Gaza and go into exile; and then a real political solution can be attempted.
Do you think Israel and the rest of the world should just accept Hamas's ultimatums, which would essentially entail just going back to a October 6th status quo?
No one is going to accept any ultimatums.
Not letting extremists and warmongers dictate the politics is a good first step.
No one is going to accept any ultimatums.
Not letting extremists and warmongers dictate the politics is a good first step.
What is anyone but Israel doing to not let extremists and warmongers in Gaza not dictate politics? I would argue the entire rest of the world is doing exactly this, and most of your rhetoric invokes doing exactly this.
If Hamas says, "We stay in charge of the Gaza Strip, Israel leaves, the rest of the world rebuilds our organization and Gaza, and then we can talk hostage for prisoner exchange" what is your political solution that doesn't let them dictate the politics?
Especially given Hamas will just murder any Palestinian they perceive as working with the world outside of their control.
and netanyahu & co. Who knows? Currently no one does. It may take decades. It may even fail.
Focus on what can be done rather than what can't be done. When nothign useful can be done than do the hardest thing of all - wait. Stop participating in the cycle of hatred and bitterness. Build relationships wherever possible.
One day things will be different.
Or you could interpret it as them accepting Palestinian leadership over the last 80 years has never been a good faith partner in pursuing peace, so they are just going to unilaterally impose conditions they find acceptable.
There was 2 Infintadas, and in their minds the Israel govt is creating a equilibrium where there will never be a 3rd. And with Gaza they seem to be taking a similar approach. Create an environment where an actor like Ha
They absolutely do not have good faith partners on the other side but continuing to annex land and carve up the west bank as they have just creates more future hurdles and is hard for them to convince they will act in good faith is the time ever comes.
700k settlers, don't think they're going to be kicked out.
and it's not stable.
Israel desperately needs a political solution. They are being badly let down by leadership that pushes military or occupation solutions. It's folly.
They are being badly let down by the extremist politicians they keep voting for. Hmmmmm.
I wonder what the political solution might involve?
Yep. Scared and angry people offered vengence and lies.
They absolutely do not have good faith partners on the other side but continuing to annex land and carve up the west bank as they have just creates more future hurdles and is hard for them to convince they will act in good faith is the time ever comes.
700k settlers, don't think they're going to be kicked out.
The problem is that October 7th notwithstanding, which was a giant intelligence/security failure, Israel's brutal tactics have generally worked in the short term to create security for Israeli's inside Israel. Compared to past decades, it really does seem like Palestinian militant group and lone actor capacity to enact political violence inside Israel has been greatly diminished.
It is very hard to convince someone to undo actions that are perceived as working towards achieving short term security, in exchange for some hypothetical long term benefit that may or may not ever happen.
Fascist governments approve of sacrificing their own citizens in clandestine black operations if it provides the excuse to do the genocide of their dreams.
72/jal,
i'm keen to hear more on your theory of how israeli security services purposefully allowed the rapes and murders of oct 7 to occur
any updates?
I question the veracity of this tweet.
That being said I think it is generally Israel's position over the years, over various govts but especially the current one, to punish what they consider Palestinian/Arab aggression (starting wars, Infintadas, suicide bombings, kidnappings, murder sprees, attacking troops, attacking Jewish civilians who go into Palestinian areas) by taking more land and squeezing them harder.
And if you want to criti
I wouldnt realy trust Khalisee either but the contents of that tweet have been widely reported.
Early in the invasion there were widespread reports from survivors and witnesses that IDF was sending young men including children and civilians into tunnels or dangerous areas with cameras.
This was of course dismissed by the pro-Western liberals. Now we get video footage that, as usual, the Gazan reports look to be accurate and truthful.
These videos are not graphic but they are extremely disturbing. I wont post it inline for that reason https://x.com/ytirawi/status/18074890753...
IDF have invented a new sport
More wounded Palestinians tell BBC the Israeli army forced them on to jeep
The problem is that October 7th notwithstanding, which was a giant intelligence/security failure, Israel's brutal tactics have generally worked in the short term to create security for Israeli's inside Israel. Compared to past decades, it really does seem like Palestinian militant group and lone actor capacity to enact political violence inside Israel has been greatly diminished.
It is very hard to convince someone to undo actions that ar
Israel had their post 1967 borders and while playing the victim card continued to usurp land. Their west bank actions have been out of line.
and netanyahu & co. Who knows? Currently no one does. It may take decades. It may even fail.
Focus on what can be done rather than what can't be done. When nothign useful can be done than do the hardest thing of all - wait. Stop participating in the cycle of hatred and bitterness. Build relationships wherever possible.
One day things will be different.
Took decades of occupation in Japan and Germany so yes, that will work.
Very weak comparison but sure if you think israel could perform some relatively benign occupation where gaza is rebuilt as a prosperous and friendly palastinian ally then .... err we're just going to maybe disagree on the possibility of that happening. Certainly not under netanyahu and co.
As a minimum that requires not responding to terrorist attacks with a horror show. That would be a good thing at least.
Israel had their post 1967 borders and while playing the victim card continued to usurp land. Their west bank actions have been out of line.
You seem unaware of all the large scale terrorism that operatives from the West Bank were committing in Israel proper for decades (blowing up buses, restaurants, schools, etc.); and how between the wall, settlements, and security zones Israel was more or less completely able to stop such acts.
You seem unaware of all the large scale terrorism that operatives from the West Bank were committing in Israel proper for decades (blowing up buses, restaurants, schools, etc.); and how between the wall, settlements, and security zones Israel was more or less completely able to stop such acts.
They built a big ass wall. That seemed to do the trick. Also Palestinians stopped doing suicide bombings as part of their strategy. Found out it wasn't great pr for them.
Good map showing population densities in the west bank
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comment...
now its reached Israeli media
https://www.972mag.com/sde-teiman-prison...
the whole article is deeply disturbing
Several extremely disturbing things on this last page.
