Ukraine-Russia War Take 2
Here is what the preliminary take on the Ukraine thread disappearing is:
The site was hit with a massive spam attack where hundreds of spam threads were created. In the case where, for example, I see a single spam thread and delete it, that is called a soft delete, and mods can still see them but forum members cannot. Those deletion can be undone.
When a massive attack hits with hundreds of threads, an admin uses a different procedure where the hundreds of spam threads are merged and then hard deleted, where the threads are gone, and no note is left behind. As I have mentioned with my own experience of just soft deleting a large number of posts, sometimes a post or thread gets checked or merged accidentally and is deleted by mistake. Dealing with hundreds of spam threads takes a sledgehammer, not a scalpel.
It appears that our Ukraine thread may have gotten caught up in that recent net of spam threads. If so, it is likely gone for good. I cant say this for sure, and am awaiting comments from admins on this issue. Yes, this sucks. And hopefully there was some other software glitch that caused the disappearance, and we may recover it in the future.
But in the meantime, I have created this new Ukraine-Russia War thread to enable the conversation to continue. Obviously continuity with earlier discussions will be lost. There is no way around that. So as best as possible, let's pick up the conversation with recent events and go from there.
If you have any questions about this, please post them in the mod thread, not here. Let's keep this thread going with posts about the war, not the disappearance of the old thread.
Thanks.
There is the famous video where Polina Menshikh was bombed and killed along with some russian soilders and civilians . Collateral damage pretty normal stuff
There was the Donetsk market shelling that killed 27 civilians
Its hard to tell about war crimes in a propaganda war. For example Ukraine can simply blame Russia for anyone they accidently kill in the occupied regions like in the two examples and both sides cover it up for global support. They can pull the those were Ukrainian deaths card even tho they are russians in occupied Russian territory .The sides wont come clean until after if ever but most of it can likely be chopped up to outdated solviet **** equipment accidents and bad intel because I don't actually think many of them want to kill their Slavic brothers
2022-2023 Total civilian casualties In Donetsk and Luhansk regions: 10,545 casualties (4,262 killed and 6,283 injured) Surely Russians are not the only one responsible directly for these numbers considering they have firm control of that territory and have no reason to self bomb
Its normal stuff I expect to see in a war and crying about it wont bring the war to an end. There are obviously war crimes but its become too political and we have to take a step back and compare it to other wars
ultimately it doesn't matter because they have nukes and people like you don't want to make peace with them so no ones ever going to get charged on that side at the high levels. So What does it really accomplish calling out Putins war crimes. It just brings peace further away and more death. im not so much oblivious to it as I don't care because its 0.01% or less of the deaths and crying about it politically just makes this more of a forever war
Once again, Ukraine is not innocent of war crimes. There are Ukrainians who have committed war crimes. There are incidents where civilians were accidentally killed on each side.
Trying to brush off all of Russia's war crimes as this is incredibly dishonest. Look at Bucha, look at Mariupol, look at the intentional bombings of civilian areas and then striking them a few minutes later to kill first responders.
Look at the executions of POWs, the torture of POWs, the mass deportations, the kidnapping and brainwashing. These do not fall under "oh **** happens during war." I encourage you to take a step back and compare it to other wars, the wikipedia is a great place to start.
I very much want Ukraine to make peace with Russia. You are incorrect.
Well that's alot harder to do when you both call each others political leadership terrorist's and criminals. you cant make peace with terrorists and criminals. Even if the latter is true
It would be different if total victory was your aim like in ww2. But these things called nukes exist so total victory will never be a thing. At some point a deal will be reached and when you tell their leadership they will be hanged in international court do you not think that becomes impossible to do? My favorite mongol strategy is when they desperately left an escape route for an encircled army because when cornered they fight to the death and you take high casualties. If they think there is a way out they will run for it and not fight so eventually you can kill them from safety with arrows.
This is reality. You're gone from accusing me of living in a fantasy world to saying Ukraine should love in a fantasy world. This is their neighbor. This is who is attacking them. They aren't calling Russia out for their war crimes just for fun, they are doing it so that hopefully they can point out exactly the type of evil they are up against and get some much needed security guarantees so they can actually have peace.
There is no question that the USA caused this war. Them forcing more and more eastern european countries into the NATO, despite the UdSSR being split ages ago, putting up Selensky as President, and selling their weapons to those who killed thousands of russians in eastern Ukraine.
Let's not try to pretend that this war isnt great for the USA, denieing Germany and most of Europe cheap Energy from Russia.
If that wouldnt be the case, guess how bad american inflation and economy would be, after printing 40% more dollars within a few years, to just mention one example.
If you look up war crimes in a dictionary, there is a flag of stars and stripes next to it...
I repeat myself, but there isnt a single good thing the USA has done globaly, since they threw nukes on japanese cities.
This is reality. You're gone from accusing me of living in a fantasy world to saying Ukraine should love in a fantasy world. This is their neighbor. This is who is attacking them. They aren't calling Russia out for their war crimes just for fun, they are doing it so that hopefully they can point out exactly the type of evil they are up against and get some much needed security guarantees so they can actually have peace.
well no I think your overblowing it based on politics and need to chill out. I'm giving logic as to why you should. There's zero realities where anyone in russia is charged with war crimes post war that Russia does not allow charged.
USA didn't force any countries into NATO? USA didn't elect Zelenskyy. USA didn't sell weapons to anyone... if you meant the aid that was given by Trump when it became obvious that Russia was going to invade... well it was a bit too late and too little by that point. The problem was not enough arms were given to Ukraine, not that that tiny amount was.
USA has done plenty of good globally. That's a ridiculous statement.
Movin: I'm not the political leadership of Ukraine. Neither are you. Denying Russia's war crimes does not serve the purpose you are claiming. In fact what you're doing now is quite literally a moving target: this is not anywhere close to your original argument that these crimes weren't crimes or that they weren't documented and therefore not widespread, or that every war has war crimes so these don't matter, or that no one is being charged so we might as well pretend they didn't happen, or wherever we're at now. These crimes happened and are still happening. Ukraine isn't going to forget. Trying to gaslight them into believing that Russia isn't murdering them is silly.
Maybe no one is charged, but Putin can't leave Russia without worrying about being shipped off to the Hague, and that's how it should be. More will follow.
USA didn't force any countries into NATO? USA didn't elect Zelenskyy. USA didn't sell weapons to anyone...
...
3x absolutely wrong.
First one... Are you serious?
Please explain a reason why NATO even still exists, after UdSSR being split. It's sole reason being left is to avoid Russia and Germany/Europe working well together, because that's extremly scary for the USA.
Second one... Ofc they didnt "vote" him, but they did everything to put this corrupt beggar into power.
Last one is laughable, you must be kidding or being totally misinformed. Ukrainian partisans/guerillas killed thousands of Russians in Ukraine with weapons sold by the USA way before the war started. That's one big reason the war has started.
He also wont make peace on unfavorable terms because unfavorable terms are him and his admitting they are war criminal and the only way people like you will allow the war to end is on unfavorable terms for putin so hence endless war.
The political leadership of Ukraine is not the only party who will decide the end of this war because they don't make the weapons so the war can end both by Ukraine ending it or by the people supplying arms ending it by taking away Ukraine's ability to fight. Why do you think only Ukraine gets to decide when this ends? Could other country's just not give them weapons? Are they going to fight Russia with rocks? what a weird thing for you to say.
My original argument was never saying they didn't exist I simply said I have never seen any evidence to suggest Russia's actions are worse then any other country at war.
I also don't care what the geopolitical opponents of russia decide is a war crime during ongoing hostility's I want historical comparisons that Russia is going above average historically(at least modernly) to be barbaric. Geopolitical enemies calling you a war criminal is just politics without comparison/context. Three examples and an article I just read wont convince me I need numbers. And I know historically every war civilian power infrastructure was targeted . Here's something you can probably easily provide how many civilians froze to death due to a lack of power/heat? it could be zero I cant find anything
Really full on projection mode ITT between the ends of the horseshoe. BGnight was correct in one of his critiques, he just didn't see how he suffers from the same flaw.
There hasn't been a single example of when USA acted like Russia did in this war. They are not at all comparable. Even if they did, it's whataboutism to bring it up in here. That's a fact.
I think you are right, they are not comparable in terms of civilian murder. In literally every war the USA fought or funded proxies to fight, it was way worse.
The Anders Puck Nielsen video was good tho but I probably didn't take away what you wanted from it. It mostly just reinforced my thoughts that Russia never agreed/signed up with the new high standards of the icc (modern Geneva convention) and are more following the rules of war from decades ago like when Yugoslavia's entire power infrastructure was blown up
I think you are right, they are not comparable in terms of civilian murder. In literally every war the USA fought or funded proxies to fight, it was way worse.
well that's why both Russia and the US are not in the International criminal court. They have lower standard of war crimes. so to them its not war crimes. so its funny we have a likely American like bluegrassplayer who is crying about Russia not following all the rules of the icc when neither his own country or russia are members or supporters of the Icc.
Kind of reminds me of when someone enjoys gay sex and a bunch of dumb Christians or muslims say they are going to hell. guys still gay hes probably gonna keep partying
3x absolutely wrong.
First one... Are you serious?
Please explain a reason why NATO even still exists, after UdSSR being split. It's sole reason being left is to avoid Russia and Germany/Europe working well together, because that's extremly scary for the USA.
To fight Russian aggression. For a great example look at what is happening in Ukraine. USA never forced a country to join. If anything the opposite happened. So I am correct, you are wrong.
Second one... Ofc they didnt "vote" him, but they did everything to put this corrupt beggar into power.
Citation needed
Last one is laughable, you must be kidding or being totally misinformed. Ukrainian partisans/guerillas killed thousands of Russians in Ukraine with weapons sold by the USA way before the war started. That's one big reason the war has started.
Citation needed. Obama got made fun of because he would only supply bullet proof vests. The weapons Ukraine used were largely inherited from when they became independent. Pretty much 0 Russians were killed by Ukrainian military prior to 2014, when Russia invaded. Isn't that your whole thing? People die during a war? Well when Russian invaded it was dumb to think Ukraine would not fight back. Same thing with the full scale invasion.
I said Russians in the Ukraine we're killed by partisans/guerillas with weapons from the USA, before the war started.
Dont you know the difference between military and partisans/guerillas? Dont you differ in between civilians and military?
Krim has always been part of Russia, historically. And they voted to become russian.
Same as +80% of eastern Ukraine wants to be russian, and not part of Europe and/or NATO.
If you want citations, try looking for any rest of world media, that isnt extremly biased to let the USA look good. I'm not doing the work that you should do yourself.
Didnt realize it's 4th of July.
I'm out for today, happy Holidays my American mates!
He also wont make peace on unfavorable terms because unfavorable terms are him and his admitting they are war criminal and the only way people like you will allow the war to end is on unfavorable terms for putin so hence endless war.
I thought he didn't care about being a war criminal? Ukraine agreeing to peace with Putin will not change whether or not Putin is a war criminal.
The political leadership of Ukraine is not the only party who will decide the end of this war because they don't make the weapons so the war can end both by Ukraine ending it or by the people supplying arms ending it by taking away Ukraine's ability to fight. Why do you think only Ukraine gets to decide when this ends? Could other country's just not give them weapons? Are they going to fight Russia with rocks? what a weird thing for you to say.
Where did I say this?
My original argument was never saying they didn't exist I simply said I have never seen any evidence to suggest Russia's actions are worse then any other country at war.
I also don't care what the geopolitical opponents of russia decide is a war crime during ongoing hostility's I want historical comparisons that Russia is going above average historically(at least modernly) to be barbaric. Geopolitical enemies calling you a war criminal is just politics without comparison/context. Three examples and an article I just read wont convince me I need numbers. And I know historically every war civilian power infrastructure was targeted . Here's something you can probably easily provide how many civilians froze to death due to a lack of power/heat? it could be zero I cant find anything
Ah well, I've shown you the evidence, so you can't use your original argument anymore. Maybe that's why you've moved the target 5+ times in the last few posts. I provided you several sources which should show you that Russia is well above historical comparisons, and especially recent history. Get researchin'.
I think you are right, they are not comparable in terms of civilian murder. In literally every war the USA fought or funded proxies to fight, it was way worse.
False, also whataboutism. Ukraine-Russia War Take 2. Thanks
I said Russians in the Ukraine we're killed by partisans/guerillas with weapons from the USA, before the war started.
Dont you know the difference between military and partisans/guerillas? Dont you differ in between civilians and military?
This is falze.
Krim has always been part of Russia, historically. And they voted to become russian.
Same as +80% of eastern Ukraine wants to be russian, and not part of Europe and/or NATO.
If you want citations, try looking for any rest of world media, that isnt extremly biased to let the USA look good. I'm not doing the work that you should do yourself.
You're not doing the work because you can't. You're wrong. If you are referencing the referendums done after Russia took over and was coercing the population... well yeah, those aren't legally binding or fair.
The Anders Puck Nielsen video was good tho but I probably didn't take away what you wanted from it. It mostly just reinforced my thoughts that Russia never agreed/signed up with the new high standards of the icc (modern Geneva convention) and are more following the rules of war from decades ago like when Yugoslavia's entire power infrastructure was blown up
Why do you think Russia didn't sign up to the new standards? Because they want to commit war crimes.
Once again, Ukraine is not innocent of war crimes. There are Ukrainians who have committed war crimes. There are incidents where civilians were accidentally killed on each side.
Trying to brush off all of Russia's war crimes as this is incredibly dishonest. Look at Bucha, look at Mariupol, look at the intentional bombings of civilian areas and then striking them a few minutes later to kill first responders.
Look at the executions of POWs, the
ukraine does like 5 war crimes for every 100 russia does and people complain that russia is being treated unfairly
If you look up war crimes in a dictionary, there is a flag of stars and stripes next to it...
I repeat myself, but there isnt a single good thing the USA has done globaly, since they threw nukes on japanese cities.
Korea. Korea is a great shining example of how America helps the world.
adios
