The costs of trans visibility

Congratulations, you are a flagship member of my ideal society. Sorry some idiots have been offended by your personal grooming and dressing habits, they are *******s.

I believe most depression / suicidality is a byproduct of modern society being incredibly different than human societies were for the vast majority of evolutionary time.

When people were literally never alone, it was very unlikely for them to feel lonely. When they had to spend most of their time trying to make sure they didn't starve or get killed by predators, they didn't have much time to ponder the meaning of life (or lack thereof).

Human bodies are now maladapted for a modern environment where they now get fat due to an overabundance of easy high calorie food.

Similarly, human brains are maladapted for a society where people sit in boxes much of the day and spend most of their time interacting with video screens instead of actual people.

just wait until whitemares learns that 4 guys in the thread repeatedly label you a transphobe though... 😀

Eh, I think they realize I'm kind of in the middle on that. I was only ever an NB-phobe. I still think it's pretty silly, but it doesn't bother me as much as it did a year or two ago. It would barely bother me at all if there was a singular genderless pronoun we could use instead of the ridiculous known-person singular "they".

You are already starting with the assumption that suicide has been selected for by situating it in the evolutionary story, but suicide has zero value to survivability. It wasn’t selected for and isn’t part of the evolutionary story.

Nobody likes incoherence in their model of reality, so believing suicide is caused by loneliness or alienation is tempting, but it’s not true. No matter how high the correlation, causation is different than correlation.

No, I said it wasn't selected against, because today's environment did not exist. It's a maladaptive byproduct of a brain which evolved to work in a society much different from that of today. Modern living has only been around a few thousand years, which is a blink in evolutionary time, and long distance communication isn't even that.

You don't believe suicide is at least partially caused by loneliness or alienation? Even a religious person could say it is from being alienated God's presence / love / plan.

Suicide has zero value to survivability, but it may be a downstream effect of something that does have value to survivability.

If a parent knows that they will fall into a horrible depression if their child dies, that will make them more protective of their child, so this would have an evolutionary benefit.

Alternatively, if a person is extremely volatile and erratic, this may give them advantages in many situations, with people letting them get their way to avoid the fallout, however this erratic behaviour will only be effective if the person follows through on their threats, which might include suicide in extreme cases. If you've ever been a victim of an abusive partner or parent, you will understand what I am talking about.

So sad to see one of the world’s most influential people come out as openly transphobic and denying his own daughter is trans. Can you imagine sharing such things about your kid to 100 million followers? No wonder he is now a trump supporter.

fyi i know you're not and it should be obvious to anyone else in the thread that you're not as well

i was instead calling out them for their needless and baseless attacks and swipes at anyone who doesn't tow the line they all adhere to

A parent being protective of their child is already selected for. I see this same thing among evolutionary theorists with guilt. They twist themselves like a pretzel to explain the survival benefits because it’s impossible for them to consider otherwise. They say guilt promotes group cohesion but pro sociality and group cohesion are already selected for.

I cut some slack with the guilt example but not with suicide. With suicide, you are trying to square a circle. This is not to say that Darwinian evolution is invalid. I’m not rejecting that story, but it’s not the complete story. Suicide is part of a different story.

The ev psych people always struggle with suicide. Free will is tough for them

You do this every time lol.

"No.... but yes."

I'm not going to dig through endless spam to find where you were high fiving the "trans isn't real" crowd during the "trans isn't real" discussions

Being protective of your children is selected for, and the mechanism that drives this is that parents feel positive emotions when their children are safe and negative emotions when their children are harmed. At the extreme end of the spectrum, a parent who loses their child may become suicidal. (Same for other tragic life circumstances that trigger depression.)

So yeah, of course suicide itself is not selected for, but (in at least some cases) it is a result of the expression of traits that are selected for, at the extreme ends of the spectrum.

Nobody asked for your re-imagined world

I think these "solutions" are ridiculous and getting in to it would be off topic and not even a little interesting

You are arguing that (a) pain + suicidal thoughts is selected over (b) pain + no suicidal thoughts for the purpose of survival. Take a step back and reconsider. Perhaps you are unable to because of that desire for coherence I mentioned.

He said they sterilized his kid with hormones and lied to him about the side effects

I have posted the research showing the incredibly high rate of teens that trans end up just being gay. You might hate elon for not accepting his trans kids identity but you might want to halt your end zone dance because mathematically the odds are really high he has a sterilized son who's gay

My larger point is that if you do not properly understand a problem, then you cannot solve it. This is how we have gotten to this false idea that gender transition is a solution to suicidal ideation. And we are doing it to children ffs.

Not to blow your mind or anything, but sometimes Elon says things that aren't true.

I've been drunk like 2-3 times in the last 5+ years

The discussion topic was the new law in California. You think the new law in California is totalitarian (despite being literally the opposite) and find it incredibly harmful to parents rights. Within that discussion you start going off about the Khmer Rouge having the best intentions and I have no clue how anyone could interpret your posts as anything other than comparing that Democrat policy with the Khmer Rogue. So if I'm way off base with that interpretation, what were you even getting at with the Khmer Rogue stuff?

According to Elon's own timeline his kid was 17+ when she transitioned

i'm sorry then, i must have crossed wires then thinking something shuffle did was you

again, i did not compare to the democrats to the khmer rouge - was talking about them in another thread (forgot i mentioned them here) so was on that tangent still and brought them up as an example of how horrific totalitarian stuff is nearly always met with widespread public approval and it's nearly always done by people who think they are making things better

if you want to say that the democrats fit that bill and draw imaginary lines comparing them to the khmer rouge then that's on you

and you know this as well, because looking back, you even asked if i was making that comparison and explicitly told you i wasn't

Musk is truly a genius. He figured out that something was up with his 4-year-old kid because the kid used "fabulous" when describing clothes and also liked musicals and theater.

Continuing, if gender transition doesn’t solve suicidal ideation, then why is it being encouraged (considering the side effects)?

Another thing, at this point, if you still believe social influence has zero effect on trans identification, then you are so far gone in your religious belief that dialogue is of no use.