The costs of trans visibility

Yes, we get it, you are incapable of rationally thinking about this yourself. If a doctor does it, it must be all well and good! Performing double-mastectomies on teenage girls who can't even drink a beer or drive a car is totally the best thing for them. In fact, it's basically the same as performing chemo on cancer patients!

We'll have to agree to disagree because I don't think there's any rational justification to ruin a child's life because of a mental health issue brought on by social contagion. You seem to think that's hunky-dory (although admittedly you have no idea about these procedures, so maybe you should first put in an effort to be less ignorant).

What an absolutely ridiculous false equivalence.

Please share the source. Sorry if I don’t take people at their word when it comes to the trans issue, because lying is prevalent in this space on both sides.

You probably don’t have the brain to understand that epistemic humility is a virtue, not a vice. Also all I’m pointing out is that you’re using slippery language to obfuscate the real issue that you have a problem with. The problem isn’t extreme-sounding medical intervention, the problem is efficacy (and maybe the underlying question on if transness is even a thing).

Another false equivalency. No, the dishonesty and obfuscation and omittance of basic facts is much more prevalent on the end of those who mutilate children, pal.

Source: https://www.city-journal.org/article/a-c...

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...

Maybe show some initiative in looking up these things ahead of time before commenting with such strong opinions? Although it's not like it matters to you. The natural progression on your end is always "it doesn't happen" > "okay, but it RARELY happens, if ever" > "okay, it happens, but not to EVERY child" > "okay, it happens, but it's good that it does!" Let's just skip to the end where you call this good and save the back-and-forth?

My problem is that we are fast-tracking children with perceptive issues rooted in DSM-listed mental heath disorders to "treat" the issue with physical body mutilation. We are telling children they are the opposite sex under the guise of "care", when there's no evidece it helps anything. I have an issue with the ever-growing list of children filing lawsuits because they were mislead about the "care" they received, including the nature of the problem in the first place.

No need to pretend I'm hiding anything. I am pretty vocal about my issue with this horseshit because I have a problem with children giving up their future when they're incapable of making these decisions. You think it's all well and good so we will agree to disagree. But let's be clear: we aren't splitting the atom here. Children cannot consent to life-changing medical treatments that are completely unnecessary. A little boy having a permanent micropenis and rendering "gender reassignment" patients unable to ever reach orgasm is NOT okay.

As always, the insults from the pro-mutilation crowd are fine, but I get banned for a week and thrown infractions for stating undeniable facts like virilized men with XY chromosomes are indeed male.

Again, the amount of internalized homophobia driving a lot of this is seriously sad. It's easier for gay kids to "transition" and be "straight" than it is to be gay. This should bother everyone.

by Phresh P

Another false equivalency. No, the dishonesty and obfuscation and omittance of basic facts is much more prevalent on the end of those who mutilate children, pal.

Source: https://www.city-journal.org/article/a-c...

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...

Maybe show some initiative in looking up these things ahead of time before commenting with such strong opinions? Although it's not like it matters to you.

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You’re literally just yapping dude. Thanks for showing evidence that these procedures are extremely rare. You also completely sidestepped the fact that you are trying to just moralize while obfuscating your real point. There’s nothing inherently immoral about getting top surgery if there actually is such a thing as transgender people and they actually are really helped by getting top surgery.

My understanding is that people are worried about “regret” or that transgender identification among young females may be the product of social contagion (see: Abigail Shrier) or that there are “real transgender people” and “fake transgender people” due to the rise of identification with transgenderism.

We’re talking about issues much more fundamental than whether there are a few thousand teenagers over a four year span that have diagnoses of gender dysphoria that sought surgical intervention. Your hidden assumptions are baked into everything you write and that’s why you don’t understand the nature of my objections to your lines of reasoning.

by Phresh P

Again, the amount of internalized homophobia driving a lot of this is seriously sad. It's easier for gay kids to "transition" and be "straight" than it is to be gay. This should bother everyone.

Hilarious. You realize that the same people using this rhetoric about trans kids would call you a groomer for talking about gay kids internalizing homophobia, right? Omg are you one of those LGB drop the T types? That’s hilarious.

We have entered "okay, but it RARELY happens, if ever" phase. I guess mutilating thousands of children with unnecessary procedures is totally fine, though.

And there isn't, yet you won't do a modicum of research yourself. It's a pathetic argument. Instead of responding to what I say, you keep insinuating there's some hidden agenda. Meanwhile, you have done zero research on your own and are begging others to spoon-feed you basic stuff. It's tiring.

lmao @ me obfuscating.

"Yeah, but you're forgetting about this metaphysical and unfalsifiable identity that totally isn't just a mental health disorder in the DSM! Maybe it really IS helping them!" Okay, I'm going to have to ignore you from now on. You think there's nothing immoral about giving little boys chemical castration pills and mutilating their bodies. It's a good litmus test to decide whether someone is worth talking to or not. "Do you think it's okay to listen to children who believe they're the opposite sex and then surgically remove their healthy body parts?"

I also don't find it hilarious that kids who are worried about being called "dyke" and "******" for their same-sex attraction are biting on this body-destroying ideology as a way out. It's incredibly sad to me, but you do you, I guess.

Ok groomer. Stop trying to groom young kids into a fake sexual ideology of homosexualism you pervert. Stop with this fake problem of metaphysical claptrap like sexual ideology and fake oppression like homophobia. You disgust me that you want to sexualize children into throwing their life away by removing themselves from the gene pool. All to advance your disgusting sexual degeneracy. Why do you want to teach children to have anal sex which leads to higher levels of aids and stds?

Can’t believe you hate kids, Phresh.

I did in this thread already, now prhesh reposted it

How is 5k events of something that should be absolutely 0 with absolutely not even a shade of doubt about it "extremely rare" jfc? if 5k reach surgery how many are on hormones (sterilized) ?

Remember the only acceptable baseline is a full 0 and we can achieve that unlike with crime, because these are procedures that simply should be fully outlawed and it's incredible we are even talking about this.

Extremely rare 5000 minors mutilated in an obscenely way by physicians using taxpayers money ? (yes if it is covered by insurance, it's taxpayers money, because insurance shouldn't be mandated to cover it and if it wasn't, they wouldn't cover it, other insured people are paying for it).

It's 5000 teams of evil people entering a surgery room to amputate breasts from girls. EXTREMELY RARE?

Are you okay?

I’m still trying to find the source actually. The article mentions a Manhattan Institute analysis, which is not cited properly as no link is included. Just a graph and a statement. And then further unsubstantiated accusations that there is an undercount. And also cited is a 3300 for 4 year period that doesn’t differentiate 18 year olds to minors.

And again, that doesn’t mean the numhers are wrong,’I just want to make sure the source isn’t just some random image of a new headline. But fair enough if you cited it earlier.

This was linked

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanet...

3678 (7.7%) were aged 12 to 18 years (period is 2016 to 2020)

Keep in mind that it's a feature , that we have such a hard time finding precise data on those procedures. They are trying to hide them since the beginning, hence the "it's suuuuuper rare" excuse used by trans activists and people who for unknown reasons want to believe them.

It's so rare hospitals make ads on that targeting minors, as liboftiktok has amply documented.

Why should I accept that the baseline should be zero? And you guys keep using the terms mutilated and sterilized as some type of gotchya. This is more of an underlying issue of whether you think trans is even a thing in the first place and less about any particulars of the types of interventions. Or it’s a matter of scale and how often this has happened compared to past rates.

Otherwise it’s just hyper-obsessing over getting some irrational/pathos based optics win.

Sorry I wrote the figure from memory. So yeah about 3700 without differentiating between minors and adults, and no link to the purported Manhattan institute analysis so we can see their figures and process for estimation.

eh? trans exist, and when adult they will make their choices. It's not an healthcare issue though so any treatment or body modification they want as adults to pursue shouldn't be mandated to be covered by insurance.

And until they are adults they shouldn't be allowed to permanently modify their bodies that much, what's complicated about this?

If the claim is that some trans people are so much in pain with their condition, they need body modifications as a treatment for a mental illness that arises from their condition, then i completly disagree with the notion that we should sterilize or mutilate people for ANY mental health condition, no matter what. It's horrific even to write down.

Activists use "affirming" to deny the reality of sterilization and mutilation. Sterilization and mutilation should never even be contemplated to try to cure a purported mental illness.

An adult should be allowed to self sterlize or self mutilate, or to find people who want to sterilize or mutilate him, on body autonomy grounds, for my ethics. But not with taxpayers paying for it obviously.

But being trans per se isn't a mental health condition at all.

Ye here we are, the study ON PURPOSE puts the bracket at 18 so you can claim that, don't you realize that? why is it we don't have clear data everywhere on this , but we have for basically all other pediatric procedures?

If these procedures were actually ultrare you would have activists everywhere linking at how rare they are in clear data showing that 12-17 the number is almost 0. They never do that. They say you tell me how many they are, i say ok i try hard to check, and the guys doing that don't make the data available in a clear way. Which alone is 100% proof of deep malfeisance obviously.

If they were ultrarare, activists wouldn't care about them being banned, who cares if it's 15 people per year right?

I don't think you know what a "gotcha" is. I use the terms "mutilated" because that's the correct term to describe things like "MtF" procedures. I use "sterilized" because many of the victims of this "care" are rendered permanently sterile. There's a reason people dress it up in language that hides the true reality of what's going on. People don't call it a "Frankenpenis" (NSFW) to be funny. Google for images, dude. You don't think this is mutilation? Please defend this kind of thing. Go read the horror stories from the people in the linked Detrans subreddit. How can you call this "care" with a straight face?

You don't think we should have serious data on the cognitive decline that stunting someone's puberty results in, too? What little data we have is NOT good, but we shouldn't even need that data -- we already KNOW that puberty is a natural process HUMANS BENEFIT FROM GOING THROUGH! Children with mental health issues are having their puberty paused, which is obviously extremely UNNATURAL, under the guise of "care." How in the hell can you justify this AT ALL? Especially when multiple studies backup that going THROUGH PUBERTY actually IS the panacea to gender-stress in a huge percentage of pre-pubescent children. Shocker: they just wind up being gay most of the time. There's 10+ studies that all affirm this if you'd like to Google. But this is never highlighted by any of the "gender-affirming care" community. Meanwhile, you have insane surgeons on TikTok promoting this with PPC ads, talking about, "Today I get to yeet 4 teets!" like some lunatics. This is the true obfuscation and it's horrifying. You will justify it no matter what, though.

Hyper-obsessing? Bro. We are sterilizing gay and autistic children, removing healthy body parts, all while ignoring the elephant in the room: THIS IS A MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE, LARGELY EXACERBATED BY DANGEROUS IDEOLOGY PROMOTING PSEUDOSCIENCE AS REALITY! Again, this isn't some high-level thought experiment we need to run studies on. From your insane takes, I assume you'd be fine with gastric bypass on anorexic patients, too?

I am facepalming so hard at every single post of yours ITT. Moving along nicely with the timeline I outlined. It doesn't happen, but if it does, it's rare, and if it's not rare or if it's actually increasing, who cares because it's obviously good!

Trans is not the mental health condition by the way, gender dysphoria is.

I don’t see why you think that surgeons can do top or bottom surgery and doctors for prescribe hormones for any reason whatsoever but psychiatrists are committing some moral atrocity for allowing patients to seek it to treat pervasive gender dysphoria. Your rhetoric seems out of place in that line of thought.

And you don’t believe taxpayers should rightly pay for any medical treatment whatsoever I assume, so I don’t know why you’re singling out a particular medical condition to exclude.

Activists don’t use affirming to hide the horrors of trans surgery, they use it because they are cringe and like to make up new terms, and also because that’s kind of supposed to be the point of these treatments. You just like to use sterilize and mutilate because you think those words have powerful emotional appeal which I mean whatever it’s your right, but you’re just basically using it as a pejorative for trans surgery, puberty blockers, and hormones. Nice trick but logically adds nothing to your argument.

? i think that surgeons shouldn't be legally allowed to do top or bottom surgery to a minor to treat a mental illness, i wrote exactly that.

It is not a medical condition they are treating, those organs they modify or remove, aren't unhealthy. If you are mentally ill you cannot be treated by modifying external organs. If somebody thinks he is Napoleon so much that he suffers because he is too tall, you do not shorten him with surgery do you? no matter how much he suffers from his mismatch of his internal identity to his exterior body. [NOTE: this isn't to claim trans people are like that, this is to claim OTHER different mental illnesses that are predicated on a mismatch of identity and body aren't treated with body modifications]

Being trans as i wrote and i repeated many times isn't a mental illness. Feeling really bad , as a trans , because you dislike your body might reach the point of being a mental illness. In no cases anyway, treatment should include damaging healthy organs or body parts.

I don't use it as a pejorative because i think adults should be allowed to sterilize themselves and mutilate themselves, just not on taxpayers money. Vasectomy is a (often reversible, but that's another topic) self sterilization procedure, widely used, and saying it is sterilization isn't pejorative. We must use clear words to convey clear messages.

People mutilate themselves with piercings, tatoos, and other stuff. It's not necessarily pejorative, it depends on the end result aesthetically for me, and in some cultures/religions some mutilations are actually holy/sacred or any case a moral positive (like in judaism circumcision is).

Still mutilations though. In circumcision case, it's a very small mutilation that doesn't functionally alter the organ for it's main purposes, and can have some added hygienical benefits, so for many people it can actually be seen as a positive mutilation.

Some people remove tonsils even if not unhealthy because they are a useless organ and removing them beforehand can reduce risks, or improve sleep. Tonsillectomy can be beneficial for your health, still a mutilation.

You find it pejorative when the word is used about healthy breasts in physically healthy girls because it is. Removing healthy organs is absurd, especially when it leaves you with horrible visible scars

Let’s answer the question whether it’s possible to transition. I’m a man. I have XY sex chromosomes, a massive penis, testes that produce sperm. I have the potential to impregnate a female if my pull out game is weak or some other form of birth control is not used. No amount of surgeries and/or hormones would ever make me a fully functional female. I’ll never have XX chromosomes, the capacity to become pregnant and carry a child to term.
The opposite is true for a woman wanting to “transition” into a man.

You say all this yet Coordi and UKE would tell you that men can in fact get pregnant. Are you sure you won't be able to get pregnant?

There is no need to do this act where you pretend to not understand basic things. Obviously some trans men can still get pregnant as they have a uterus etc. Some can't. The whole HAR HAR HAR UKE THINKS MEN GET PREGANT ARE YOU SURE YOU WON"T BE ABLE TO?!??!!? gimmick seems neither funny nor clever.

Lol this trio today. Obviously "mutilated" is choosing the most emotionally charged word possible for what is a doctor-supported medical procedure. I guess my surgeon mutilated me when they removed my cancerous thyroid. You can oppose gender-affirming surgeries if you must, but maybe drop the act where you pretend you can't figure out why your word choices are silly.