The costs of trans visibility
Yesterday, Dylan Mulvaney broke her silence: https://www.tiktok.com/@dylanmulvaney/vi....
For context, this is a trans influencer who built a 10 million strong following on TikTok. She took a brand deal with budweiser to post an ad on an instagram, and the anti-trans right went absolutely ballistic, calling for a boycott, condemning the company, and to some perhaps unknowable degree it influenced that Budweiser sales dropped by a 1/4 and
. Dylan speaks more personally about the effect of the hatred on her.
What strikes me about this story is that it is just about visibility. This isn't inclusion in sports or gender-affirming care for minors, it was just that a trans person was visible. This wasn't even visibility in a TV commerical that a poor right-winger is forced to see, it was an ad on her own instagram page. We're all in our own social media algorithm influenced bubbles, but from my vantage point it really has seemed that in the last year or so things have just gotten worse for trans people and the backlash to even minor visibility is growing.
We need to do better.
yeah the main thing is one can assume your female partner has ovaries which may or not be functioning
one should never be in a position to assume their female partner never had ovaries - so the onus of disclosure is more pressing because this isn't just about fertility - it's a fundamental aspect of the person
it's kind of wild how some activists have tried to normalize non-disclosure to the point where some advocate you should go into every relationship assuming they may be trans and if it's an issue for you then the onus is upon you to ask
clearly written by people who really have their finger on the pulse over what it's like to date a woman
i'd like to see an updated version of this where woody also asks ann if she tucks
So based on this, it seems like you would choose option A. Can you provide an answer to the question, why is it that you are seeking a law specifically for trans people outlining their infertility to a potential mate, but not non trans people?
because the reason for disclosure of being trans is not simply due to fertility - you know this as well but you're instead treating this like some game
may i suggest this one, it seems like it'd be up your alley
For me it has nothing to do with fertility. It has to do with the fact that trans women are biologically male and if they are going to be having sexual contact with someone that’s probably not something you should conceal from a partner.
Doesn’t mean you should go around telling random people you’re trans, but if sexual contact is about to happen that’s a good time to disclose.
Anyone who believes that a man can “transition” into a woman and that a woman can “transition” into a man is definitely confused about biological facts.
What precise biological fact do you think they are confused about? Your buddy was talking about hysterectomies, but nobody believes “transitioning” means one magically gets a uterus or changes their chromosomes. It seems like you are just playing a silly word game where you pretend advocates of trans people think “transition” means something they don’t think claim.
That was my question to you. You started off your post asking whether there should be rules again not disclosing their trans status specifically because of their inability to have children down the line. To that, I asked if those rules should also apply to ANYONE (man, woman, transperson, etc) with an inability to have children. Should there be laws in place to enforce this for ALL people, or only for trans people? If the answer is no, then
I see.
The thing about not being able to have a kid was to push the example to an extreme and see what was the thinking of those agreeing that a man thinking being a woman or that did the operation were effectively a “real” woman ?
And if they considered ethical to not say anything .
This was coming from the example of , should I be piss and have the right to feel “violated” by being duped to believe I was kissing or having sex with a woman when in fact I wasn’t ?
Hence laws coming in play .
Grabbing the butt of woman is considered sexual harassment but is there or should there be laws for trans situations when not being disclosed ?
A woman not disclosing she can’t have babies and a trans woman not dsclosibg it because she is a male ain’t in the same freakn ball park at all ….
But my main point was, if trans disclosure would be a necessity , shouldn’t it be discriminatory for those who think they should be considered woman ?
I mean they are a woman or they are not .
You can’t say in some situation they should be considered man and some others they should be considered woman ….
A black man is a black man , u can’t say well today I will threats him like a white man and other day or situation I’ll considered him a black man ..
That’s discrimination and disrespectful.
yeah the main thing is one can assume your female partner has ovaries which may or not be functioning
one should never be in a position to assume their female partner never had ovaries - so the onus of disclosure is more pressing because this isn't just about fertility - it's a fundamental aspect of the person
+1
For me it has nothing to do with fertility. It has to do with the fact that trans women are biologically male and if they are going to be having sexual contact with someone that’s probably not something you should conceal from a partner.
Doesn’t mean you should go around telling random people you’re trans, but if sexual contact is about to happen that’s a good time to disclose.
Yes .
But if that is (imo) evidently true for sleeping purpose , why is it not for competing in sports ?
Isn’t discrimination when you treat people differently depending of the situation ?
You’re a male in that situation but a female in another ?
And where would be the line for sex ?
Kissing ?
Oral Intercourse ?
Complete intercourse ?
For disclosure being trans ?
And if disclosure is needed , isn’t that a proof they could never be considered a woman in it’s integrality ?
I mean my thoughts on trans people in sports is pretty clear, I don’t think trans women who have been through male puberty should be competing with women from college level up. I mean if some amateur league wants to open it up to trans women I’m ok with that because that kind of has a different teleology.
As far as sexual contact, I mean, we can probably find some gray area where I think it’s fine not to say it before the sexual contact starts, but generally if it’s like a dating profile or if it’s a date then morally they should disclose. If we’re talking about if there needs to be some law for it, probably we would draw the line at anything considered sex like oral sex, genital touching, penetrative sex, etc. Especially if we’re talking about preop and someone could be surprised by the type of genitals you have, that just seems like something that really just should never happen and most likely doesn’t happen too often anyway.
it really doesn’t. Biology 101 will inform you that you can’t change your chromosomes. But that just ain’t what transgender people are saying. They are saying they identify differently from their sex. There is nothing in biology 101 or any other class that says that is impossible. It’s a category error.
Check out this section of Trevor Noah's interview with Veronica Ivy (2:40-3:20). How would you respond to what she said?
Check out this section of Trevor Noah's interview with Veronica Ivy (2:40-3:20). How would you respond to what she said?
Not available in Canada, but sure do share her brilliant point.
It's short. I'll transcribe the conversation. It's from a Daily Show interview with a trans woman.
Trevor: There are many who would argue—who are not transphobes—there are many who were born biologically women, who'll say, "But you have an unnatural advantage over me, and that makes the sport unfair." How do you respond to that?
Veronica: Yeah, there's lots of ways you can respond to that. So, the first is the very language of "you were born"—and I'm not biological somehow? Like, I don't think I'm a cyborg. So, this idea that, "Oh, you're not a biological woman." Well, I am a woman. That's a fact. I am female. So all my identity records, my racing license, my medical records all say female. Right? And I'm pretty sure I'm made of biological stuff, so I'm a biological female as well.
She’s equivocating on what the term biological means. In this case Noah means that she’s a natal male who went through male puberty, and she means that she is a biological organism who has the identity group female on her license and her medical records. These are two completely different claims from one another so they’re talking about two very different concepts.
It all comes down to the reason why we even segregate male and female sports to begin with. It’s because we think it’s important for cis women to have a sport where they are physically on parity with one another, in order to give them equal professional opportunities. By including people who are not natal females into this category, we are diminishing the intention of the division in the first place.
I think that a male can take hormones and hormones suppressors which will allow them to develop secondary sex characteristics, especially if started at a moderately younger age. These features can be further enhanced using facial feminization surgery, neovaginal surgery, breast implants, etc to the point that at least 25% of them will pass for a woman in the vast majority of situations.
If you deny these facts then you are denying biological
No. Biologically he is still a man. Perhaps you should take a biology course or at least read a book on the topic. No amount of medication nor surgical modifications can change that.
i think if you spent some time with some genuine trans instead the version newsmax fed you then you'd be surprised just how naturally you'll agree with their chosen gender and how much it is indeed a natural fit
i've never met a single trans who i felt was a someone masquerading or cosplaying as another gender
i've met plenty who did that, but then again i also wouldn't consider some guy with a beard who wears a sundress to the punk bar i go
In my line of work I’ve encountered many “trans” people. I would not say a single one would be able to fool anyone that they are the gender they pretend to be.
For me it has nothing to do with fertility. It has to do with the fact that trans women are biologically male and if they are going to be having sexual contact with someone that’s probably not something you should conceal from a partner.
Doesn’t mean you should go around telling random people you’re trans, but if sexual contact is about to happen that’s a good time to disclose.
What do you think about that, for a man who has erection problems? or a woman who is having her period that day?
Check out this section of Trevor Noah's interview with Veronica Ivy (2:40-3:20). How would you respond to what she said?
This person is clearly delusional. The moment he said he’s a biological female shows this. He has XY chromosomes which, by definition, make him a biological male. Let’s get back to living in reality.
It's short. I'll transcribe the conversation. It's from a Daily Show interview with a trans woman.
Trevor: There are many who would argue—who are not transphobes—there are many who were born biologically women, who'll say, "But you have an unnatural advantage over me, and that makes the sport unfair." How do you respond to that?
Veronica: Yeah, there's lots of ways you can respond to that. So, the first is the very language of "you were born"
This confirms my claim. Unlike a few ITT who pretend the debate is over like biology 101 facts, I claim the debate is one of language. And this quote is just one of word play about “biological”. I think it’s silly word play, as I do much of the word play ITT, but word play nonetheless.
Next?
This person is clearly delusional. The moment he said he’s a biological female shows this. He has XY chromosomes which, by definition, make him a biological male. Let’s get back to living in reality.
to be clear, Veronica’s word play is much less offensive than originalganster’s insistence on always misgendering trans people and refuse to use the pronouns they use. Veronica may be silly in her word play, originalgangsfer is just being an ******* in his.
No. Biologically he is still a man. Perhaps you should take a biology course or at least read a book on the topic. No amount of medication nor surgical modifications can change that.
Well I have a hard time trusting any of your opinions now, because I never said that they are not natal males. So the fact that you can’t read simple sentences makes it so that most of your posts can now be thrown into the garbage.
What do you think about that, for a man who has erection problems? or a woman who is having her period that day?
It’s a category error. Those types of issues are expected of their respective sex, so whether to disclose or not disclose that has nothing to do with when a trans person should disclose their sex.
FWIW, if you’re on your period you should probably tell someone you’re about to have sex with, because blood will end uo everywhere.
This confirms my claim. Unlike a few ITT who pretend the debate is over like biology 101 facts, I claim the debate is one of language.
But that is the Humpty Dumpty claim.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.”
From 'Through the Looking Glass'. People who seek to control language seek thereby to control reality. (It never works, but it never stops them trying either.)
i identify as someone who who doesn't believe that person to be a biological women, therefore i am correct
But that is the Humpty Dumpty claim.
From 'Through the Looking Glass'. People who seek to control language seek thereby to control reality. (It never works, but it never stops them trying either.)
Indeed. But I think you should have quoted the crew who refuse to appropriately gender trans people and pretend that what is meant by transition is magically about changing biology like whether one has a uterus.
It’s a category error. Those types of issues are expected of their respective sex, so whether to disclose or not disclose that has nothing to do with when a trans person should disclose their sex.
FWIW, if you’re on your period you should probably tell someone you’re about to have sex with, because blood will end uo everywhere.
Tbh at this point in progressive areas of progressive countries it is to be expected that a female-looking easy going potential partner willing to have quick sex could be a biological man.
That's particularly true if you aren't good looking, biological women don't drop from the sky willing to suck their dicks for free with little work to men who aren't far above average.
Tbh at this point in progressive areas of progressive countries it is to be expected that a female-looking easy going potential partner willing to have quick sex could be a biological man.
That's particularly true if you aren't good looking, biological women don't drop from the sky willing to suck their dicks for free with little work to men who aren't far above average.
I’m in an extremely progressive are and I rarely even encounter trans women except at political rallies/events that I go to. I don’t know if this is a joke or not but it doesn’t matter what people expect in your area anyway, it matters what the person’s orientation is and it would be wrong to withhold your natal sex for that reason.
