Ukraine-Russia War Take 2
Here is what the preliminary take on the Ukraine thread disappearing is:
The site was hit with a massive spam attack where hundreds of spam threads were created. In the case where, for example, I see a single spam thread and delete it, that is called a soft delete, and mods can still see them but forum members cannot. Those deletion can be undone.
When a massive attack hits with hundreds of threads, an admin uses a different procedure where the hundreds of spam threads are merged and then hard deleted, where the threads are gone, and no note is left behind. As I have mentioned with my own experience of just soft deleting a large number of posts, sometimes a post or thread gets checked or merged accidentally and is deleted by mistake. Dealing with hundreds of spam threads takes a sledgehammer, not a scalpel.
It appears that our Ukraine thread may have gotten caught up in that recent net of spam threads. If so, it is likely gone for good. I cant say this for sure, and am awaiting comments from admins on this issue. Yes, this sucks. And hopefully there was some other software glitch that caused the disappearance, and we may recover it in the future.
But in the meantime, I have created this new Ukraine-Russia War thread to enable the conversation to continue. Obviously continuity with earlier discussions will be lost. There is no way around that. So as best as possible, let's pick up the conversation with recent events and go from there.
If you have any questions about this, please post them in the mod thread, not here. Let's keep this thread going with posts about the war, not the disappearance of the old thread.
Thanks.
lol whoops.
I think that the type of hating on America goes even further than anger at America for a lack of beneficial things, they seem to want to tear down society as well and think all "lib" institutions are bad. But I'm not entirely sure and don't care all that much to be honest. It's also a discussion for another thread (and a thread that I'd likely never participate it).
I don't doubt that the extreme left and extreme right have different motives which lead them to become useful idiots. I am purely focused on the Kremlin propaganda that comes across because of it. It is pretty much identical since it all comes from the same source.
Better than you, especially regarding Ukraine. Conscription is not slavery and it's funny how Russia's conscription is never brought up. I am not getting into this particular bit of Russian propaganda again now though.
Distinctive Features of the Contemporary Model for Russian Propaganda:
- 1. High-volume and multichannel
- 2. Rapid, continuous, and repetitive
- 3. Lacks commitment to objective reality
- 4. Lacks commitment to consistency.
oh right I guess I didnt know that these men could just defy a conscription order and live happily ever after.
saying that the guys you support are doing the same thing as Russia is not really the point that you think it is.
But I'm not entirely sure and don't care all that much to be honest.
you dont say
doesnt stop you from authoritatively opining on it at every chance. gotta love non-readers.
Not being allowed to disobey a law does not mean that someone is a slave. That's absurd.
Ukraine is not doing the same thing that Russia is doing. Ukraine is mobilizing to defend itself; Russia mobilized because they failed their special military operation and found themselves unable to continue invading and plundering.
That is beside the point though, which is not a surprise since the point apparently went over your head. I don't think Russia's conscription is slavery either. The point is that when one side does it you call it slavery, when the other does it there are crickets. This has been a recurring theme. How many times have you pointed out Russian Nazis... which are far more numerous? How many times have you pointed out Russian war crimes... which are far more numerous? How many times have you pointed to fascism in Russia... which is far more numerous?
I mean you take it even further by actively defending Russia sometimes. You said that Wagner wasn't using cannon fodder, then refer to Ukrainians as cannon fodder. It's absurd. Does a fish know what water is? These extremist Twitter circles are so deep in the Russian propaganda that they don't even recognize it.
you just spent pages talking about how the left believes the same as Maga bc of Tim Pool. its comical.
And you've accused me of poor reading comprehension... This is comical.
I posted about how the far right and far left post the same narratives regarding the Ukraine war because they get their propaganda from the same source: the Kremlin. I've been saying this for 2 years now and have included multiple examples of it happening, even using your own posts as examples.
What I did not do is state what beliefs led useful idiots to do this past the desire to always vilify America. I have no idea why some people feel the need to vilify America no matter what; largely because I don't care. What I do care about is how Russia uses this to their advantage to make these people useful idiots and somehow convince them to parrot Russian propaganda for the imperialist war and genocide they are carrying out.
Russia invaded Poland and Finland in 1939. And...Russia signed a "non-aggression" pact with Nazi-Germany in 1939:
In the night of 23-24 August 1939, Germany and the Soviet Union signed a non-aggression pact., known as the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. The countries agreed that they would not attack each other and secretly divided the countries that lay between them. Germany claimed Western Poland and part of Lithuania.
Yeah Russia is a nation concerned with human rights and stuff in 2024 (Just like the USA....lol). the only reason Russia wound up on the winning side in WW2 was being invaded by a mentally ill Adolph Hitler.
Russia's success in WW2 had nothing to do with human rights or friendship with other countries...but self-preservation and Nazi-Germany stupidity. And Russian actions after WW2 were NOT structured around human rights in the Eastern Bloc countries they were overlords for.
Again, please move to Russia if u support Putin. He will reward you handsomely if you contradict the truth about their past..............
A lot of the far right ideologically agrees with Russia, or they tend to recognize their own views in the current ideologies that rule Russia.
* Irrendentism and neo-imperialism: The view that idealized versions of history and former borders gives you the right to invade other sovereign nations and claim their land as yours.
* Ethnic and cultural superiority: That there is a higher value to Russian ethnicity and Russian culture that gives it the right to subjugate the lesser ethnicies and cultures, including those within the Russian federation.
* Romanticization: Fanciful idolizing of historical figures and time periods and holding the idea that society somehow should and could be reverted to a "better time".
* Anti-liberal: The view that human rights such as free speech, the right to assembly, the right to free press and diverse political opinion makes people and society weaker.
* Authoritarian: The view that centralized power in the hands of few that dominate and oppress opposition makes society stronger.
* Totalitarian: The view that the leader of a state should hold power over the death and life of every citizen within that state.
* Traditional: The view that there exists a set of established moral norms that every citizen should be forced to abide by.
So in that regard, the far right is susceptible to Russian propaganda, because they agree with a lot of it. What we also see these days is that everyday conservatism grows more radical and also adopts more and more of these ideas into their rhetoric.
So while anyone can be fooled by Russian propaganda, the far right is especially prone to be influenced by it, simply because there are so many willing agents next to the the useful idiots.
I just found out about this.
IMO it's shocking, but not surprising that Russia is funding anti-Ukraine voices.
I was curious to see if this would gain any traction in right wing circles, so I looked at Megyn Kelly and the Hill's videos on the subject and all the comments are equivocating or downplaying what Russia did. I'm not sure what % of the comments are from Russian bots and what % is right wingers clinging harder to their opinions in the face of facts, but either way it's depressing.
Unfortunately I don't see this story waking up right wingers from the reality of Putin's expansionism.
A lot of the far right ideologically agrees with Russia, or they tend to recognize their own views in the current ideologies that rule Russia.
* Irrendentism and neo-imperialism: The view that idealized versions of history and former borders gives you the right to invade other sovereign nations and claim their land as yours.
* Ethnic and cultural superiority: That there is a higher value to Russian ethnicity and Russian culture that gives it
If they already agree with something, then it's not propaganda toward them.
Russian propaganda is the targeted actual made up lies/narratives about events in Ukraine. That's propaganda (Which then the tankies and the neonazi replicate in the west).
Other takes originating from Russia are just normal rightwing takes which a ton of people agree with for normal rightwing reasons, but of course the left in the west wants to *delegitimize* being rightwing, so they claim "Putin pushes for X, X is necessarily propaganda and horrible".
Problem is they don't do the same when Maduro says something, do they? If Maduro claims the "environment has to be protected", being an environmentalist doesn't automatically become an illegitimate proposition in the west.
Well if Putin says that bottom surgery for minors with gender disphoria is bad, that doesn't in any way or form delegitimize that claim as well.
So the whole "traditional" , which is the large part of the content, just finds a ton of people that for absolutely normal, legitimate, value preferences agree with them. And that's not propaganda in any sense.
lol whoops.
I think that the type of hating on America goes even further than anger at America for a lack of beneficial things, they seem to want to tear down society as well and think all "lib" institutions are bad. But I'm not entirely sure and don't care all that much to be honest. It's also a discussion for another thread (and a thread that I'd likely never participate it).
I don't doubt that the extreme left and extreme right have differ
Ok... thanks for sharing, I appreciate it.
Ya, I don't totally agree, but I agree it's not really worth getting in to. I think the distrust of government is the main thing that Russia exploits on both ends of the political spectrum, but it pretty much ends there.
Sure it is. Russia is recruiting, paying and training right wing extremists who then go back and influence others within their movements. This is how they got far European far right parties to function as "election observers" (lol) in Crimea.
These people then function as fifth columnists who recruit and convince useful idiots.
Russian propaganda is the targeted actual made up lies/narratives about events in Ukraine. That's propaganda (Which then the tankies and the neonazi replicate in the west).
Other takes originating from Russia are just normal rightwing takes which a ton of people agree with for normal rightwing reasons, but of course the left in the west wants to *delegitimize* being rightwing, so they claim "Putin pushes for X, X is necessarily propaganda
Russian right-wing ideology as touted by the current regime is pretty much just fascism and Nazism under a different name. If the current regime changed out the Russian flag for a big swastika and made it official, all you would have to change is to go from the pretense of law to making the totalitarianism official.
And of course they make the ideology sound as inviting and natural as possible. People have this notion in their head that extremist ideology spreads in cartoonishly evil ways. It spreads like politics does, by gaining popularity and it gains popularity by appealing to people. They tell you that they will solve your woes and create jobs, not that they'll shoot your kids in front of you because you refused to abandon your political views.
Thanks for the well thought out post, t_d.
I agree with a large part of it, but I also think that the vast majority of the far right doesn't really care about a lot of Russia's claims. If people of Russian ethnicity are superior to their neighbors, and if they have historical claims they use to justify imperialism, I think most far right don't really care except for the most brainwashed. The majority of propaganda that gets amplified doesn't deal with things defending Russia so much as they focus on attacking the West. Even things like claiming Russia has the right to invade its neighbors is framed as an attack on "NATO expansion" and usually not Russia's historical claims. Rarely do people openly support Russia's authoritarianism, imperialism, or genocide; they deny it and amplify anything negative from the other side.
The majority of the useful idiots, whether on the right or left, tend to believe that the West is primarily responsible for most of the world's problems. They see the current state of Western society as irreparably damaged and therefore conclude that it must either be destroyed or radically transformed. Because of this they will take any opportunity to attack The West, and they are even willing to do so if it means they are objectively helping an authoritarian regime in their pursuit of imperialism and genocide.
They start from the conclusion: The West is evil. They then work backwards to see how they can warp evidence, or just fabricate outright lies, to support this conclusion. The Kremlin is more than willing to help.
Spoiler
t_d for mod
World order 'under threat not seen since Cold War'
The international world order is “under threat in a way we haven’t seen since the Cold War”, the heads of the UK and US foreign intelligence services have warned.
The chiefs of MI6 and the CIA also said both countries stand together in "resisting an assertive Russia and Putin's war of aggression in Ukraine".
In a first-ever joint article, Sir Richard Moore and William Burns wrote in the Financial Times, external that they saw the war in Ukraine coming "and were able to warn the international community", in part by declassifying secrets to help Kyiv.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2g...
What geniuses. Saw it coming
Pity we then did **** all to prevent it.
How many ukranians need to die to satisfy your Westerners lust for defeating Russia,and having "trillions of dollars of minerals"?
right, thats why they use slave soldiers
Henry_Sugar, if you're around was wondering if you could help me out regarding Gazprom. Lipsits touched on this on a video I watched regarding Omsk, but a lot of it went over my head, especially due to the translations. Is this more or less correct:
Russia seized Shell's shares of another company, then gave those shares to Gazprom for cheap, and Gazprom filed this as profits for August?
What if one Iskander landed in nato country,do you really think that usa would retaliate?I have bad news for you
How many ukranians need to die to satisfy your Westerners lust for defeating Russia,and having "trillions of dollars of minerals"?
Depends on what you mean by "defeated". That is a broad concept.
Nobody who knows much about Russia wants it to suffer an existential defeat, because that means the potential for an end to the Russian federation, civil war, possible Chinese intervention and 6000 nuclear weapons cosplaying as geopolitical pinballs.
For the same reason, there is no sensible western dream of crossing over Russian borders in a war of conquest. So, Russian mineral wealth is safe from the grubby hand of all those bloodthirsty western madmen who didn't invade Ukraine and didn't force Russia to send hundreds of thousands of men across its borders.
What would be nice is if Russia suffered a strategic defeat of such magnitude that it stopped invading and occupying nearby countries, because you know... it's nice to have dinner with your family without worrying about the likelihood of Russian artillery shells obliterating your house in the coming years. They're up to 4 such invasions and occupations in 35 years now (Chechnya, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine), which is slightly alarming to those who live outside far-right and far-left echo-chambers.
Speaking of those awesome minerals, if Russia had gone the route of trade, diplomacy and alliances it could have created an incredible cauldron of wealth, trade and influence. It would have long since become the superpower it dreams of becoming, and its current ambitions would look pathetic in comparison. The only roadblock is that it would have necessitated continued reform, which meant free elections, which meant eventual change of government, and the regime couldn't have that.
they dont need to risk it right now
Are you dumb?Chechnya was an internal matter within Russia,and Georgia was the one who started that war,and Pridnestrovie didnt want to be a part of Moldova.And when your western leaders talk openly that they want to balkanize Russia and get a strategic defeat of Russia,why are you crying about Russias response?
