Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Idk what happened to the post before me (probably deleted by mods) but did you know that the UN found credible evidence that Hamas terrorist raped corpses on Oct 7?
Based on the information it gathered, the mission team found clear and convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment has been committed against hostages and has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing against those still held in captivity. In line with a survivor/victim-centered approach, findings are conveyed in generic terms and details are not revealed.
In the context of the coordinated attack by Hamas and other armed groups against civilian and military targets throughout the Gaza periphery, the mission team found that there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred in multiple locations during the 7 October attacks, including rape and gang-rape in at least three locations, namely: the Nova music festival site and its surroundings, Road 232, and Kibbutz Re’im. In most of these incidents, victims first subjected to rape were then killed, and at least two incidents relate to the rape of women’s corpses.
There sure is.
Eye witness testimony of like a bank heist is very unreliable.
Dozens of doctors and nurses telling you that they saw the same thing day after day is reliable enough for me. Any doctors saying it's not true?
Why is Isreal arresting doctors, btw?
The kids aren't accidentally killed in fire fights. They are shot by snipers.
As has been pointed out BTW? times 1 bad act doesn't justify exterminating a population. I don't think American civilians should be masacred because of Iraq, which many supported at the time. I don't think the civilian pop of Isreal should be massacred for supporting this. Etc.
It's pretty silly to have to even argue about if it's OK to shoot a six year old through the head cuz one of their countrymen did a rape. But I guess those are the sorts of things one must resort to to support Isreal on this.
The "doctors", like the "journalists", that interact with palestine aren't necessarily the kind of people you think when you think of doctors and journalist back home.
A "journalist" was found holding hostages.
"Doctors" are often political operatives with some med school training.
And radical leftists abund worldwide and no one else would ever even think of going to palestine do you get what I mean?
If the 9 more radical leftist french people with some med school training go to Palestine, they will lie to further Hamas goals because they want Hamas to win.
Give me eyewitnesses that have a solid pro Israel life history and I will believe them.
I won't believe any account by anyone who ever agreed with "from river to the sea" in His life though, like all campus protesters and the like. And there were legions of them pre 10 7 as well, some of them became doctors, and volunteered to "save the Palestinians from genocide" which they decided was happening ever before they ever entered the area.
Just never believe any leftist about anything is a good heuristic
It was like 40 Western medical volunteers. None of them were holding hostages. (And it's far from certain any Gazans doctors were either).
But maybe their eyewitness testimony saying they found bullets in the brains and hearts of Gazan kids on a daily basis is unreliable. It's likely hard for a trained doctor to know where a bullet is.
Spoiler
Benjamin Netanyahu is facing a split with Mossad and the IDF over hostage negotiations as senior government figures openly row over ending the war in Gaza.
Disagreements between the security services and the prime minister’s office over signing a ceasefire deal have been growing in recent weeks and have started to be leaked to the public through a campaign of toxic briefings.
It comes as ministers clash in key security meetings, with reports of shouting matches and fists slamming on tables over the terms of an agreement that could free some of the remaining hostages.
The split at the top of government have intensified since last Saturday’s killing of six hostages in a Gaza tunnel that led to mass protests and a general strike to stop the war and sign a ceasefire deal. The hostage negotiation team, run by David Barnea, the director of Mossad, and Ronen Bar, the head of Shin Bet security services, want to strike a compromise deal with Hamas to end the war but they are frustrated by Mr Netanyahu.
The hostage negotiation team, run by David Barnea, the director of Mossad, and Ronen Bar, the head of Shin Bet security services, want to strike a compromise deal with Hamas to end the war but they are frustrated by Mr Netanyahu.
Looks like Biden is more or less throwing in the towel too.
https://www.axios.com/2024/09/08/us-gaza...
It was always a long shot, but seems pretty much impossible now. It's the one thing that Bibi and Sinwar have agreed to work together on. A whole lot of "I'll agree to a ceasefire as long as he promises not to!" going on.
There are prolific posters here who constantly beat the drum about how evil Israel is, and how justified Hamas's cause is. It would be offensive if it was not obvious that such posters are either trolls or, worse, deeply confused individuals.
I hold as offensive those publications that sympathize with Hamas's cause.
It continues to mystify me why people are shocked at how poorly Israel treats those whose stated goal is the elimination of Israel. However Israel treats its Palestinian prisoners is likely a vacation compared to the rape and murder Hamas committed against its female Israeli prisoners, and nothing compared to how male Israeli prisoners were tortured, then killed.
Trolls will troll. Easy to ignore them. But international publications that show overt bias against Israel, particularly those in democratic countries, are a true failing of society.
Sure they are just protesting Nethanyau , it isn't about antisemitism
There sure is.
Eye witness testimony of like a bank heist is very unreliable.
Dozens of doctors and nurses telling you that they saw the same thing day after day is reliable enough for me. Any doctors saying it's not true?
The problem is that the articles are telling a very inconsistent story, and it has a lot to do with the sample bias. If you want to go out and discover if there is a systemic issue of indiscriminate killing, you don't go out and find the most salacious stories from the frontlines. For example, the guardian article states that most kids are killed through either shrapnel, building collapse, burns, and most likely explosives.
Nine doctors gave the Guardian accounts of working in Gaza hospitals this year, all but one of them foreign volunteers. Their common assessment was that most of the dead and wounded children they treated were hit by shrapnel or burned during Israel’s extensive bombardment of residential neighbourhoods, in some cases wiping out entire families. Others were killed or injured by collapsing buildings with still more missing under the rubble.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/a...
Such killings, while very tragic, do not tend to indicate a pattern of targeting like shooting someone in the head with a sniper rifle does. I will say that those attacks were also alleged in that article, and if true they should absolutely be condemned. But what exactly is the scale of these types of attacks, and where are they happening?
And remember, this article is extremely biased against Israel. Even many of the statements that seem to cast doubt on the evidence that Israel is deliberately targeting children is couched in language implying that Israel is doing something nefarious. See the following example:
Some of the physicians said that the types and locations of the wounds, and accounts of Palestinians who brought children to the hospital, led them to believe the victims were directly targeted by Israeli troops.
Other doctors said they did not know the circumstances of the shootings but that they were deeply troubled by the number of children who were severely wounded or killed by single gunshots, sometimes by high-calibre bullets causing extensive damage to young bodies.
...
The Guardian shared descriptions and images of gunshot wounds suffered by eight children with military experts and forensic pathologists. They said it was difficult to conclusively determine the circumstances of the shootings based on the descriptions and photos alone, although in some of the cases they were able to identify ammunition used by the Israeli military.
...
Doctors who worked at the Nasser hospital in southern Gaza said what appeared to be targeted Israeli fire killed more than two dozen people, including children, as they entered or left the hospital in the first weeks of this year.
The article uses a lot of eyewitness testimony from doctors, but when it is pressed to provide corroborating forensic evidence like pictures, video, bullets recovered, etc that would actually substantiate the claims, it tends to back up and say "well some portion of them may have been killed by Israel but we don't know about the majority of them".
The doctors are definitely not a source I would immediately dismissed, but the problem is that it seems like they make very big claims, but when it comes to actually corroborating the claims then the corroboration seems really weak.
Why is Isreal arresting doctors, btw?
IDK, show me the story and I might have a better idea.
The kids aren't accidentally killed in fire fights. They are shot by snipers.
We're not talking about the actions of individual soldiers that, if the allegations are substantiated, should be condemned and prosecuted according to military procedure. We're talking about the idea that Israel is committing a collective punishment. Soldiers do bad things even in just wars. Just think of any war that you supported throughout history where the side you prefer won, I guarantee your "side" committed some unspeakable acts against the other side. That has nothing to do with whether a war is just and should continue.
As has been pointed out BTW? times 1 bad act doesn't justify exterminating a population. I don't think American civilians should be masacred because of Iraq, which many supported at the time. I don't think the civilian pop of Isreal should be massacred for supporting this. Etc.
I absolutely agree that Israel should not target civilians and should do everything they can to avoid civilian casualties. I reject the notion that not a single dead civilian is acceptable, however, and have to take into account the unique conditions of Gaza when assessing if Israel is doing their due diligence. In my opinion, they could definitely be doing better. But to say they haven't tried to reduce civilian casualties is absurd. They have coordinated food and medicine aid to the people of Gaza as much as can be reasonably expected. They aren't just going in there and bombing and shooting indiscriminately, they give warnings and designate areas as being off limits.
It's pretty silly to have to even argue about if it's OK to shoot a six year old through the head cuz one of their countrymen did a rape. But I guess those are the sorts of things one must resort to to support Isreal on this.
Sure, I agree. I also think that the approach that the anti-Israel side has had throughout this entire war has been absurd. They called it a genocide from the very beginning, lumped in civilian casualties with combatant casualties, claimed that Israel was committing a mass starving campaign, and have tried to say that this is not a just war because Israel is a settler-colonial state or some nonsense. If we're going to be calling people out, let's have some consistency.
It was always a long shot, but seems pretty much impossible now. It's the one thing that Bibi and Sinwar have agreed to work together on. A whole lot of "I'll agree to a ceasefire as long as he promises not to!" going on.
Well, they're power-hungry and corrupt morons whose political movements have made Palestine and Israel circle the drain for the last two decades. Now their nations are locked in a conflict where there will be precious little difference between winning and losing.
That said, I don't have a crystal ball that can tell if things would have been better with some integrity and competence in either lair, the world isn't that simple. Still, it would given a better outcome a chance.
Well, they're power-hungry and corrupt morons whose political movements have made Palestine and Israel circle the drain for the last two decades. Now their nations are locked in a conflict where there will be precious little difference between winning and losing.
That said, I don't have a crystal ball that can tell if things would have been better with some integrity and competence in either lair, the world isn't that simple. Still, it would
This is in the West Bank. The "moderate" part of Palestine. The entire political culture is organized around Western financed generational Jihad. There is really nothing else. If Sinwar wasn't around some individual decisions might be different but the problem would be the same. If you want different results you need different incentive structures. I personally think the best way to do this is to shut down UNRWA and remove generational refugee status and unlimited aid.
Maybe you have a different idea to change the incentive structure. Maybe you think all the Jews should just go back to Poland (ignoring the reality 95% of them never had any ancestors from Poland, and the other 5% wouldn't be invited back anyways).
But pinning this all on Sinwar doesn't address the actual issue.
I think we also dont appreciate how a giant part of the problem is demographic. During the last 40 years of them being "genocided," Palestinian society went through a massive population boom. Almost unprecedented population growth. All of it being paid for with your and my tax dollars FWIW.
However, they dont have the societal, political or economic infrastructure to handle this. So you have this giant population of young 15-40 year old men with nothing to do. So they become radicalized.
In pre modern times these men would all be sent out to rape, pillage and conquer some other tribe; and they would either win or be wiped out. And either way problem solved. But in the modern context this is a political disaster.
And the outside world cant come in and invest and put that young energy to productive work, because the political culture is too violent and dysfunctional.
Egypt has a very similar demographic pyramid, a "not so great" economy let's say, yet all it takes to keep violent islamist terror at bay is the will of their leaders
Egypt has a very similar demographic pyramid, a "not so great" economy let's say, yet all it takes to keep violent islamist terror at bay is the will of their leaders
Egypt's could also be a tinder box waiting to explode. No one anticipated the Iranian revolution (which happened under similar demographic pressures) until it happened. Egypt is also ramping up for a war with Ethiopia over control of the Nile, which could cause their political stability to fall apart quickly.
Egypt has 7% unemployment rate while Palestinian Territories it is closer to 40%. So obviously having an economy that can actually handle population growth is going to help a lot too.
Regardless, I agree political culture and leadership matters. But in the Palestinian context I am pessimistic just removing Sinwar would change much; as long as in the name of empathy we continue to materially and morally support Palestinian political dysfunction under such dysfunctional demographic realities.
I think we also dont appreciate how a giant part of the problem is demographic. During the last 40 years of them being "genocided," Palestinian society went through a massive population boom. Almost unprecedented population growth. All of it being paid for with your and my tax dollars FWIW.
Yeah that's how this worked. A bunch of men were so bored they became radicalized.
Regardless, I agree political culture and leadership matters. But in the Palestinian context I am pessimistic just removing Sinwar would change much; as long as in the name of empathy we continue to materially and morally support Palestinian political dysfunction under such dysfunctional demographic realities.
Just removing Sinwar wouldn't change much. Agreed.
Yeah that's how this worked. A bunch of men were so bored they became radicalized.
In this case political Islam makes everything worse, like it always makes everything worse. But you would be surprised how much political dysfunction historically really does boil down to having too many unproductive, bored low status males.
In this case political Islam makes everything worse, like it always makes everything worse. But you would be surprised how much political dysfunction historically really does boil down to having too many unproductive, bored low status males.
It doesn't always make everything worse.
In Pakistan conservative Muslims were so decent, and strongly interested in having a functional country, that Islamic radical terrorists started targeting them.
Prime Minister Netanyahu:
"Look, I can stop, and you don't have to listen. I heard you, and I understand. I was in this chair when people came and spoke to me the way I am speaking to you now, and it only made me angrier. But many things I heard back then later turned out to be true. We are fighting against a cruel enemy, but this enemy is not the small enemy; this enemy is Iran. For 15 or 20 years, I've been fighting to explain to the people of Israel, the citizens of Israel, and the world that this enemy is coming to destroy us. It uses proxies, it is building nuclear weapons to use against us. And I'm fighting to save this situation because if I don't fight, we will all be destroyed."
Sara Netanyahu:
"That's right."
Prime Minister Netanyahu:
"I won't tell you what happened behind closed doors."
Sara Netanyahu:
"You were pretty much alone."
Prime Minister Netanyahu:
"Alone. Against the entire world, against the President of the United States."
Sara Netanyahu:
"And against the military officials here."
Prime Minister Netanyahu:
"To fight and explain that it's not just Hamas and Hezbollah, it's a nuclear weapon they will use against all of us... I go into the room every day and ask myself, 'Why are you here? To enjoy the pleasures of power?'"
Sara Netanyahu:
"What pleasures?"
Prime Minister Netanyahu:
"I am here to save the people of Israel because the Almighty gave us the opportunity to return to the stage of the world and to exist in our land, and they are coming to destroy us. So I won't talk to you about these 15 years, about the actions, about the struggle around the world."
Sara Netanyahu:
"Talk about the 15 years, about the military chiefs who didn't allow..."
On Tuesday, September 10, Türkiye will participate for the first time in 13 years in a ministerial meeting of the Arab League in Cairo to discuss the war in Gaza and strengthen ties with the region, Reuters reports.
The news agency, citing its own anonymous sources, notes that Turkish Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan will meet with representatives of Arab League member countries amid the escalating conflict between Israel and the Palestinian group Hamas.
The article highlights that Türkiye, which has condemned Israel’s actions and supported charges against it in the International Court of Justice, has had tense relations with some members of the Arab League in recent years. However, it is reported that despite these tensions, Ankara has improved ties with Egypt, the UAE, and Saudi Arabia, while remaining in conflict with other countries, including Syria.
Since the start of the war in Gaza, Türkiye has joined the Arab League and the Organization of Islamic Cooperation’s joint contact group aimed at ending the conflict. According to a Turkish diplomatic source cited by Reuters, Fidan’s invitation to this meeting reflects the growing interest in Türkiye’s regional role and its desire to strengthen cooperation with the Arab world.
Türkiye is also negotiating with the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) on a free trade agreement, aiming to finalize it by the end of the year. President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has called on Islamic countries to unite against the threat of Israel’s so-called "expansionism."
Israeli expansionism advances in Gaza, according to Haaretz article.
Annexation, Expulsion and Israeli Settlements: Netanyahu Gears Up for Next Phase of Gaza War
all of the pro-Israel people in this thread who spent months swearing up and down that there would be no settlements or full time occupation are gone now.
They are keeping the north, crowding people even further into the south. Recipe for endless strife.
seems that way. they are building more corridors including in the far north. these will be perpetual targets for the Resistance.
whats it called when you cordon people off into smaller and smaller areas? probably cant say.
Maybe they got Dief this time
