Ukraine-Russia War Take 2

yes but this war only happened because we allowed Crimea to happen with minimal repercussions to Russia

Which only happened because we allowed what they did in Georgia, which only happened because we allowed what they did in Chechnya (although that’s debatable there)

Chechnya was Russian land, not much we can do to a nuclear power within it's borders (see Uighurs and China, or Tibet long before that).

Georgia was a complicated mess because of the explicit secession of the sliver of land contested, but yes we could have intervened even back then. but at least in that case we had the excuse of the worst financial crisis since the great depression which was just brewing.

Georgia was largely Bush's fault imo. It still should have been a wakeup call to what Russia and especially Putin's Russia was. When Putin "stepped down" there was still a lot of hope that Russia would continue down a less violent path, and there were also many indicators that this could be the case. When it was revealed that Putin was still acting president more or less, that should have been a wakeup call. When he forced his third term despite the protest of Russians then that should have been an even bigger wakeup call.

There was plenty which could have been done that doesn't involve directly interfering inside Russia. Europe, especially Germany, funded this war.

hmm weird

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/ge...

by Victor P

hmm weird

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/ge...

Yes "independent" as in, that's what Germany wanted the EU to say

I would love to see you apply the logic used in that report to Israel Gaza.

Europe was complicit in Russian disinformation for over a decade.

On 1 August 2008, the Russian-backed South Ossetian forces started shelling Georgian villages, with a sporadic response from Georgian peacekeepers in the area. Intensifying artillery attacks by the South Ossetian separatists broke a 1992 ceasefire agreement. To put an end to these attacks, Georgian army units were sent into the South Ossetian conflict zone on 7 August and took control of most of Tskhinvali, a separatist stronghold, within hours. Some Russian troops had illicitly crossed the Georgia–Russia border through the Roki Tunnel and advanced into the South Ossetian conflict zone by 7 August before the Georgian military response. Russia falsely accused Georgia of committing "genocide" and "aggression against South Ossetia"—and launched a full-scale land, air and sea invasion of Georgia, including its undisputed territory, on 8 August, referring to it as a "peace enforcement" operation. Russian and South Ossetian forces fought Georgian forces in and around South Ossetia for several days, until Georgian forces retreated. Russian and Abkhaz forces opened a second front by attacking the Kodori Gorge held by Georgia. Russian naval forces blockaded part of the Georgian Black Sea coastline. The Russian air force attacked targets both within and beyond the conflict zone. This was the first war in history in which cyber warfare coincided with military action. An information war was also waged during and after the conflict. Nicolas Sarkozy, the President of France, personally negotiated a ceasefire agreement on 12 August.

Where have we seen this playbook before? And what useful idiot has attested that it was legit and reasonable before? Hmmmmmmmm. I'm sure he's not defending Russia though, Russia has simply never done anything wrong before unless they learned how to do wrong from evil America.

what percentage of Ukrainian civilians that were killed do you think supported Russia? since the majority of them should be in pro Russian territory's like Luhansk and the Donbas. or just Russian held territory?

Some areas saw minimal warfare (those already almost seceded pre invasion, very close to the border, in Donbass), and they worked as magnets for pro Russia Ukrainians in adjacent places (they immediately started moving toward Russia controlled Ukraine).

Russia went harder against the places with pro Ukrainian people obviously, so they mostly killed pro Ukrainian independence civilians

I am still open to being convinced Russia is committing above average war crimes . these are not bad faith questions. but this is still a war expanded around an ongoing civil war so the lines are more blurry then most

I am not even sure Russian war crimes are above average tbh, but given the war was completely unprovoked (Ukraine did nothing to Russia at all to justify this) even with 0 war crimes the "normal" destruction and the death of militaries and "normal" civilian collateral damage is all a "crime".

So I don't think we need to go deep into the hole of looking for war crimes, the war itself was criminal and fully unjustified.

There was no civil war, there were some separatist terrorists creating problems.

Movin: that would be entirely speculation. It's also not a good metric. Did some of the LPR/DPR that were used as slave soldiers (actual slave soldiers, not the way the term has been warped ITT) to be cannon fodder at one point support Russia? Yeah maybe. It's unlikely they still did when they discovered what that actually meant.

Are a lot of the people along the borders (apparently including in Kursk as well) completely apathetic to who controls them and willing to "support" whoever is currently there? Yes, we've seen that in both Ukraine and Russia now.

You'll have to define the question far better, and even then it will still be speculation.

I've given you ample resources to research Russian war crimes. At this point if you continue to question if Russia is committing more war crimes than average, the it is indeed bad faith. Hell you can just google it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes...

I don't understand the question, why would Donetsk be different?

the numbers from that quote were from Chechnya, not Ukraine.

well no they were already breakaway autonomous states. They were in a state of a cold cival war since 2014 as I understand it. But I agree with everything else you said mostly

they arent analogous since Palestine is illegally occupied land and a people that have been slaughtered by the thousands for decades.

because people there would be hit by Ukraine attacks on russia? because its the capital of the Donetsk People's Republic and has not been under full Ukraine control in a very long time.

But I would still expect kiev propaganda to include them as Russia would too. No ones forcing Ukraine to attack its own citys but its logical strategically.

from 2014 - 2022 there were 50k casualties in the donbas and only 500 kia were Russian servicemen reported by the us state department.

Sounds like a civil war to me. My point is obviously both sides are going to claim these numbers as civilian casualties caused by the other side to inflate numbers. Obviously Russia is more to blame but they were not pulling the trigger its a bit more complicated. Just like when Ukraine targets military targets in the occupied territory's and their own civilians die. Even if they are actually Russian supporters better put that down as a Russian war crime

LPR and DPR were never autonomous states. Their stats are usually counted differently from Russia or Ukraine. Once again, either way those stats would not be represented in the stat you quoted because that stat had to do with Grozny.

Victor: Russia and Israel both exercising de factor control over territories through their military is exactly why they're analogous. They are directly comparable.

It's 14k from 2014 to before Russian invasion.

That's not a civil war, that groups of terrorists you deal with during the years.

Colombia dealing with Farc wasn't a civil war either.

Civil war would have been if Donbass had seceded (or anyway Kiev had lost all control) and was controlled by separatists and then the war happened.

Like what's going on on Myanmar

Moving target you mentioned Donetsk but that's an Ukrainian city.

maybe you meant the recent entrance into Kursk (Russian territory)?

Not sure also why you care about what happened 2014-2022. Nothing that happens within Ukraine territory can ever become a justification for Russia to invade.

Even if Ukraine had killed 100k civilians in the Donbass , Russia still would have 0 claims over them, not their citizens.

Or you buy the hitleresque claim that speaking Russian allows Russia to invade to protect them?

While after Russia invades, Ukraine is fully justified to do literally anything

I think Ukraine is morally right but they are in an active propoganda war and we wont know until after so I agree its pointless to talk about . but bluegrass keeps bringing it up

it is a ukriane city but it has been Russian control for a decade so any attack directed towards it has been done by ukraine