2024 ELECTION THREAD
The next presidential race will be here soon! Please see current Bovada odds. Thoughts?
Same guy that was telling us "there's more to the story" and linked to a fake article when Pelosi's husband was in the hospital about the attacker knowing him in what turned out to be an assassination attempt on her. No surprise that no assassination attempts happen on prominent dems when you just make up conspiracy theories on how it was something else when they do happen.
If you are going to pretend like you are just musing about the nature of cause and effect in the universe, then allow me to focus you on the actual question.
Do you think that it is both appropriate and defensible for Democrats to criticize Trump for his behavior after the 2020 election?
The election denialisms with no proofs was disastrous and democrats (and others) were perfectly right to critize that a lot.
The attribution of jan 6 riots to Trump jan 6 speech was insane and the subsequent sham kangaroo proceedings in the house a disgusting , indefensible theater
The outrageous take of claiming that if you demonize someone 24/7/365 for many years, some people might be motivated to act violently against him lol
- Trump says and does things
- People accurately and truthfully report the things that Trump says and does
- Some nutjob decides he wants to kill Trump
- People who reported things that Trump said and did are responsible for demonising him
Solid logic, bro. Kind of seems in line with the whole MAGA philosophy of "the people calling others out for doing bad things are worse than those doing the bad things".
How can we stop gun violence in America? I know, let's criminalize any criticism of Orange Daddy.
- Trump says and does things
- People accurately and truthfully report the things that Trump says and does
- Some nutjob decides he wants to kill Trump
- People who reported things that Trump said and did are responsible for demonising him
Solid logic, bro. Kind of seems in line with the whole MAGA philosophy of "the people calling others out for doing bad things are worse than those doing the bad things".
"accurately and truthfully" lol
Yes, I know you come from the school of thought where quoting things people say is not considered accurate and truthful if it makes people you support look bad. But go on, indulge me, what are the lies being made up about Trump that led to this assassination attempt?
The attribution of jan 6 riots to Trump jan 6 speech was insane and the subsequent sham kangaroo proceedings in the house a disgusting , indefensible theater
The outrageous take of claiming that if you demonize someone 24/7/365 for many years, some people might be motivated to act violently against him lol
Trump repeated the election was stolen 24/7/365, even though he knew it was a lie. That's what incited the insurrection, not his 1/6 speech.
Trump demonized the integrity of the election 24/7/365 yet isn't responsible for the insurrection, but Democrats are somehow responsible for the assassination attempts because they discussed what he did 24/7/365.
That doesn't make sense even for you.
Let me play the world’s smallest violin for Trump being criticized for being an evil, dangerous moron
You are smart and decent and with a moral compass, you will understand what i am talking about when the exact same strategy will keep being used after Trump, that's when you will realize it's not about Trump. You got a hint for 3-4 months when desantis had a chance to maybe with republican primaries. Takes about him being "worse than Hitler" and ofc "worse than Trump" started immediatly.
In Italy supposedly it was about Berlusconi being a unique threat to democracy and so on, which justified the same kind of language and distorted narrative buildind and so on.
When he became far less relevant politically, magically the same kept happening to anyone on the right with significant political consensus. Every time it was a threat to democracy and so on. We already played the movie in Italy.
It's not about trump, it's the whole leftist political strategy in the west that is about delegitimizing the possibility that a right, with different ideas and values, can exist and can govern and it's still democratic if that happens.
The same is happening with Le Pen and AFD and was happening with Wilders (now they belatedly made a government) and is happening with Farage in the UK and so on. And doesn't matter how much they can be despised or criticized legitimately , they are all threats to democracy, and their successors will be as well, at least if they actually propose something opposite to leftism in the policy space.
I love the idea that democrats are demonizing Trump for what he exactly did, but conservatives aren't demonizing gay, trans, poc, etc. people every single day for completely made up crap (eating dogs, turning people gay, indoctrinating kids, pedophilia, etc.). They even admit they just make stuff up.
You are smart and decent and with a moral compass, you will understand what i am talking about when the exact same strategy will keep being used after Trump, that's when you will realize it's not about Trump. You got a hint for 3-4 months when desantis had a chance to maybe with republican primaries. Takes about him being "worse than Hitler" and ofc "worse than Trump" started immediatly.
In Italy supposedly it was about Berlusconi being a un
The problem is not that Trump is a threat to democracy, the problem is the people calling him out for being a threat to democracy. Bang on cue.
Trump repeated the election was stolen 24/7/365, even though he knew it was a lie. That's what incited the insurrection, not his 1/6 speech.
Trump demonized the integrity of the election 24/7/365 yet isn't responsible for the insurrection, but Democrats are somehow responsible for the assassination attempts because they discussed what he did 24/7/365.
That doesn't make sense even for you.
The second impeachment was about "incitement of insurrection" for the speech on jan 6 among other things.
It was about purported LEGAL responsibility, not moral. I am talking, and i was very clear, moral, causal responsibility, not legal.
/
From the article of impeachment (the second one in 2021)
On January 6, 2021, pursuant to the 12th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, the Vice President of the United States, the House of Representatives, and the Senate met at the United States Capitol for a Joint Session of Congress to count the votes of the Electoral College. In the months preceding the Joint Session, President Trump repeatedly issued false statements asserting that the Presidential election results were the product of widespread fraud and should not be accepted by the American people or certified by State or Federal officials. Shortly before the Joint Session commenced, President Trump, addressed a crowd at the Ellipse in Washington, DC. There, he reiterated false claims that “we won this election, and we won it by a landslide”. He also willfully made statements that, in context, encouraged—and foreseeably resulted in—lawless action at the Capitol, such as: “if you don’t fight like hell you’re not going to have a country anymore”. Thus incited by President Trump, members of the crowd he had addressed, in an attempt to, among other objectives, interfere with the Joint Session’s solemn constitutional duty to certify the results of the 2020 Presidential election, unlawfully breached and vandalized the Capitol, injured and killed law enforcement personnel, menaced Members of Congress, the Vice President, and Congressional personnel, and engaged in other violent, deadly, destructive, and seditious acts.
The problem is not that Trump is a threat to democracy, the problem is the people calling him out for being a threat to democracy. Bang on cue.
The problem is that the right in general is objectively far more democratic in an actual, technical sense than the left, yet the left systematically claims the opposite in every country unless the right is actually leftist (like tories in the UK, which don't get called anti-democratic, because they behave like lefists).
You know what is literally anti-democratic? delegating any actual power to unelected bodies. Who does that more?
The problem is that the right in general is objectively far more democratic in an actual, technical sense than the left, yet the left systematically claims the opposite in every country unless the right is actually leftist (like tories in the UK, which don't get called anti-democratic, because they behave like lefists).
No true Scotsman much?
In any case, we're talking about Trump, the guy who did all sorts of shady and probably illegal things to avoid relinquishing power after he was voted out. The fact that is anti-democratic should be apparent to a 5 year old, but we're talking about MAGA supporters here, so yeah, they need to be reminded every 10 seconds that this is what they're voting for. What some generic "left" is doing in France or Belgium to some different "right" is completely irrelevant here.
No true Scotsman much?
In any case, we're talking about Trump, the guy who did all sorts of shady and probably illegal things to avoid relinquishing power after he was voted out. The fact that is anti-democratic should be apparent to a 5 year old, but we're talking about MAGA supporters here, so yeah, they need to be reminded every 10 seconds that this is what they're voting for. What some generic "left" is doing in France or Belgium to some
There are "true scotsman" , ie actual rightwing people demonized in every country, i listed some of them.
We are talking about Trump and i am explaining why i , against the opinion of most people in this forum, don't think what democrats do is just about trump, rather trump is an excuse to do what the left is going to do more and more and is already doing in general everywhere an actual right exists: delegitimize it and call it undemocratic.
It is not irrelevant if , for once, the USA is lagging in a trend (the USA usually set cultural and political trends for the rest of the west) and i am watching in the present a remake of a movie that i already saw in my country.
This was in 2015
https://www.washingtonpost.com/postevery...
Donald Trump is America’s Silvio Berlusconi
Laughing at a buffoon won't stop him from having an impact on politics
Trump repeated the election was stolen 24/7/365, even though he knew it was a lie. That's what incited the insurrection, not his 1/6 speech.
Trump demonized the integrity of the election 24/7/365 yet isn't responsible for the insurrection, but Democrats are somehow responsible for the assassination attempts because they discussed what he did 24/7/365.
That doesn't make sense even for you.
Yes. McConnell said Trump was responsible for the riot and insurrection and the only reason he did not vote to convict in the impeachment trial is that he was no longer president, which was a completely made up, political reason. People are been convicted in impeachment trials after they left office. If republican senators did there jobs and upheld their oath, it should have been an easy guilty vote on Trump.
There are "true scotsman" , ie actual rightwing people demonized in every country, i listed some of them.
We are talking about Trump and i am explaining why i , against the opinion of most people in this forum, don't think what democrats do is just about trump, rather trump is an excuse to do what the left is going to do more and more and is already doing in general everywhere an actual right exists: delegitimize it and call it undemocratic.
Right now it's about Trump and the criticisms being levelled against him are absolutely legitimate. Arguing for stifling legitimate criticism because the same criticism is being applied elsewhere that you see as illegitimate, or because the same criticism might be applied in future against someone else illegitimately is pretty lol.
A question for d2 e4 and others who claim Trump is antidemocratic: If trump wins in 2024 and there are regular elections in 2026 and 2028 , would you all admit you were completly wrong and so rethink your entire political ideology and ability to assess objective reality?
Because i would if Trump does a coup and stays in power longer than 4 years after winning in 2024.
The second impeachment was about "incitement of insurrection" for the speech on jan 6 among other things.
It was about purported LEGAL responsibility, not moral. I am talking, and i was very clear, moral, causal responsibility, not legal.
/
From the article of impeachment (the second one in 2021)
On January 6, 2021, pursuant to the 12th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, the Vice President of the United States, the House of Rep
The impeachment happened before Trump spent months spreading the election lies, so they obviously weren't included. Plus we haven't been talking about the impeachment so that's immaterial anyway.
From the DOJ's charges and indictment:
Despite having lost, the Defendant was determined to remain in power. So for more than two months following election day on November 3, 2020, the Defendant spread lies that there had been outcome-determinative fraud in the election and that he had actually won. These claims were false, and the Defendant knew that they were false. But the Defendant repeated and widely disseminated them anyway—to make his knowingly false claims appear legitimate, create an intense national atmosphere of mistrust and anger, and erode public faith in the administration of the election.
