Ukraine-Russia War Take 2
Here is what the preliminary take on the Ukraine thread disappearing is:
The site was hit with a massive spam attack where hundreds of spam threads were created. In the case where, for example, I see a single spam thread and delete it, that is called a soft delete, and mods can still see them but forum members cannot. Those deletion can be undone.
When a massive attack hits with hundreds of threads, an admin uses a different procedure where the hundreds of spam threads are merged and then hard deleted, where the threads are gone, and no note is left behind. As I have mentioned with my own experience of just soft deleting a large number of posts, sometimes a post or thread gets checked or merged accidentally and is deleted by mistake. Dealing with hundreds of spam threads takes a sledgehammer, not a scalpel.
It appears that our Ukraine thread may have gotten caught up in that recent net of spam threads. If so, it is likely gone for good. I cant say this for sure, and am awaiting comments from admins on this issue. Yes, this sucks. And hopefully there was some other software glitch that caused the disappearance, and we may recover it in the future.
But in the meantime, I have created this new Ukraine-Russia War thread to enable the conversation to continue. Obviously continuity with earlier discussions will be lost. There is no way around that. So as best as possible, let's pick up the conversation with recent events and go from there.
If you have any questions about this, please post them in the mod thread, not here. Let's keep this thread going with posts about the war, not the disappearance of the old thread.
Thanks.
yeah that confused me too. russia said ukraine did it, and ukraine said yeah we did it, it was awesome. not sure how that's "propaganda"
Show me where Ukraine said they did what the Breaking Points video claims.
Russian MOD BRAGGED about shooting down the missile. ATACMS are in high demand, they are not being used to intentionally target people at the beach.
Russia is telling people that the WAR ZONE is safe for people to vacation to, then as Russia is intercepting missiles (on the way to nearby military targets) over the WAR ZONE they told people was safe, they don't even sound the sirens.
Painting this as Ukraine intentionally targeting civilians is blatant propaganda. It is also using the exact same line of reasoning that Scott Ritter was using like a week ago.
kasparov is a lunatic. stick 2 chess bro
ad hominem
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
you said it wasn't tho, and we all gotta listen to you because you're the president of posting or something
When did I say calling Kasaparov a lunatic isn't an ad hominem? It clearly is.
Anyways feel free to remove the Kasparov part of that post and address the main argument.
They don’t all have to be instructed and agree to work together for there to be a conspiracy. They know that helping Russians and hating democrats gives them popularity in America, so that’s what they do
They don’t need a playbook, although I’m sure it would help them
They don’t all have to be instructed and agree to work together for there to be a conspiracy. They know that helping Russians and hating democrats gives them popularity in America, so that’s what they do
They don’t need a playbook, although I’m sure it would help them
They're using a playbook here. The chances that they arrive at this nonsensical argument on their own is astronomically low. USA has been supplying arms since before the war. It was clear that USA was helping with targeting since the full scale invasion started. Mentioning these things like they are new developments are ridiculous.
Suggesting that it's a provocation to allow one side to shoot back at the people attacking them is just ridiculous. Giving Putin's threats against USA any credibility is ridiculous. They follow the exact same train of thought as Russian propagandists, whether they realize it or not.
It is also a pattern with them. When Russia was saying that they can't be defeated because of their complete disregard for life so USA should stop sending aid, Breaking Points said the exact same thing. There's probably more examples, these are just the two that were posted ITT.
idk sounds like a lot of mumbo jumbo, i thought ukraine was bragging about it in that tweet. what did it say if not?
(i don't feel like going back and re-watching the video)
Yeah well that's the propaganda part of this. The tweet says
ictitious signs of "peaceful life" in #Crimea. Crimea is definitely a foreign territory occupied by #Russia, where there are hostilities and a full-scale war. The very war that Russia unleashed for genocidal and invasive purposes only.
Crimea is also a large military camp and warehouse, with hundreds of direct military targets, which the Russians are cynically trying to hide and cover up with their own civilians. Which in turn are considered to be... civilian occupiers.
Nowhere here does Ukraine say they intentionally targeted the civilians on the beach.
so this beach gets attacked around the same time ukraine tweets out: peaceful life huh? russia is illegally occupying crimea. also there are lots of legit military targets there. also there are no civilians because they are occupiers, and you think it's some unrelated coincidence?
I don't think that or anything remotely similar to that.
It's a direct response to accusations that Ukraine intentionally killed civilians on the beach.
Ukraine has posted this exact same thing before too. They are making it very public that Crimea is occupied territory, a war zone, and not safe for civilians.
They've also publicly thanked the tourists for posting pictures of military installations which were then hit by Ukraine. Last year Russia was making those civilians post humiliating photos in order to discourage other tourists from making the same mistake. Russia has made the decision that keeping up the facade that everything is fine is more important than the lives of their citizens.
This is entirely on Russia at this point as long as Ukraine continues to fire at military targets.
Lower yellow circle is the Russian naval base.
Upper yellow circle is an airfield.
Red circle is where Russians are told they can vacation.
Since there's been some interest in military attacking civilians (or was it just interest in Russian civilians?) here's a few videos and pics where Russia either intentionally targeted civilians with bombs and Ukraine was unable to intercept, or where Russia was indiscriminately shelling civilian centers and not caring who they hit. It's all sad, but one of the saddest ones imo is the woman talking about how they've learned not to run and help because Russia frequently does "double tap" strikes in order to kill those who do attempt to help.
Spoiler
Here's some from the end of May:
RUSSIAN STRIKE CAMPAIGN
1. Zelenskyy on Russia striking a construction market (similar to Lowe's) in Kharkiv
2. Footage from outside the store when the glide bombs hit
3. Security camera footage inside the building
4. Location of the airfield the aircraft took off from (well within striking distance if Ukraine were allowed to hit it)
5. Maria Avdeeva on the multiple strikes on Kharkiv civilians
6. GRAPHIC Compilation of strikes on Kharkiv this w
Oh and since the Russian propaganda which has now been debunked overshadowed this bit of news I'll post it again since it directly pertains to targeting civilians:
The International Criminal Court (ICC) has issued an arrest warrant for Russia's former defence minister, Sergei Shoigu, and the chief of general staff, Valery Gerasimov.
The ICC judges said the two men were suspected of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity during the war in Ukraine.
The court said there were grounds to believe that Mr Shoigu and Mr Gerasimov bore individual criminal responsibility for attacks on civilian targets between October 2022 and March 2023.
When did I say calling Kasaparov a lunatic isn't an ad hominem? It clearly is.
Anyways feel free to remove the Kasparov part of that post and address the main argument.
He didn't mean that you said calling K a lunatic wasn't an ad hominem, but that you did something similar in the past.
I'm pretty sure he is referring to when you pointed out that a source quoted by jbouton was a convicted child sexual abuser or something like that.
Jbouton complained about that being an ad hominem and you (and I) said it wasn't. My interpretation was that it was an ad hominem to attack the person posting things here, but not to attack the person quoted.
In this case 72o attacked K, not you, which IMO is fine. I agree with you in probably all your positions here, but I think it's fine to cast aspersions on the political/military expertise of a chess player. I have done something similar many times when people cite Chomsky as an expert in politics or economics. And I also think that what K has to say about anything regarding the current conflict is in no way relevant.
I think an attack on any person making the argument can be an ad hominem, regardless of if they are a poster here. I do not think 72o was trying to attack me, I think he was trying to once again avoid an argument he can't counter.
Scott Ritter being a convicted child sex offender working for RT is not an ad hominem.
RT has a history of peddling Kremlin propaganda that is obviously false, and also has a history of giving propaganda talking pieces to people who can amplify their message. They especially take advantage of people in precarious positions like Ritter who recently had his passport seized after turning to USA for whatever reason.
These are facts which pertain to any argument put forth by RT or Ritter. This was also not an attempt to avoid the argument, which I was more than happy to address. If the intention is to provide context about potential biases while still addressing the substance of the argument, then it is not an ad hominem.
Calling Kasparov a lunatic is an (untrue) opinion meant to avoid discussing what he is saying. That is absolutely an ad hominem. Bouton claiming experts on Ukraine are "random Twitter users" is an ad hominem.
I think an attack on any person making the argument can be an ad hominem, regardless of if they are a poster here. I do not think 72o was trying to attack me, I think he was trying to once again avoid an argument he can't counter.
Scott Ritter being a convicted child sex offender working for RT is not an ad hominem.
RT has a history of peddling Kremlin propaganda that is obviously false, and also has a history of giving propaganda talking pie
what does Scott Ritter being a convicted sex offender have to do with his takes on Ukraine?
Ritter does seem to be a grifter and charlatan. that is ofc, an ad hominem. but its also true in my opinion.
when people are labeled Putin stans or Russian propagandists or useful idiots, that is also a clear ad hominem in the sense that you are using. it may or may not be true.
It's explained quite clearly in the quoted post.
no you did not explain how his conviction has anything to do with his takes on Ukraine.
I did not say his conviction has anything to do with his takes on Ukraine. I said his conviction and precarious position combined with fleeing to Russia has to do with his takes on Ukraine and USA:
RT has a history of peddling Kremlin propaganda that is obviously false, and also has a history of giving propaganda talking pieces to people who can amplify their message. They especially take advantage of people in precarious positions like Ritter who recently had his passport seized after returning to USA for whatever reason.
Russia claims they are at war with USA. Ritter fled from USA to Russia and then began parroting Russia's propaganda about USA. This is obviously relevant and important context for anything that Ritter says.
This is not very different from how, for example, if Kyiv Post writes a glowing article on Zelenskyy it should be taken with a grain of salt.
Important context is not ad hominem. Calling people lunatics as an attempt to sidestep arguments completely is.
