Politics and Society Moderation Discussion Only Fans Thread
Hello everyone. I've closed the previous mod thread, and opened this to capture all issues related to moderation policies and actions going forward. I'll kick it off by reposting my intro post from the other thread. Again, I'm happy to be here and look forward to hearing from you.
Browser
Hello everyone.
I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to serve as a moderator in Politics and Society. I asked for this position because I believe we are experiencing a polarization in our politics and society unseen since the 1960s. We may well be at a juncture from which we will either make great progress or suffer great setbacks in regards to our democratic foundations and civil rights over the next few years. So I believe it is important to maintain a forum for discussing these important topics. When the other mods had to step back a bit due to their real life time obligations, I asked to join the mod team to help keep the forum going.
I have not followed this forum in the past, though I have been reading through threads the last few days and made a few posts. This has allowed me to get a sense of the initial impression the forum likely makes on new readers who are deciding if our forum is a place they would like to visit regularly and participate in. While I see some familiar names from the live poker forum, many of you I have not had any interaction with to date. I have no preconceived notions of anyone's posting behavior and will essentially start from a clean slate.
I will shortly post more about my modding approach and give my initial impressions of the forum based on my observations over the last several days. I will be soliciting your input on things you like about the forum that you want to remain, and things you don't like that you would like me to change. Your candid input and feedback is very important to me. Especially, please don't hesitate to let me know if you think a policy or a proposal is a bad idea. I'd rather hear it before it goes into effect than after.
My overall modding principle is simple: Be Nice. Disagreement need not be disrespectful, and everyone must be treated with respect. Calling a poster derogatory names or hurling snarky insults never usefully advances a discussion. It just bogs things down and turns off many would be participants. And it's not nice. Don't do it.
My goal is to have a forum where people with a wide variety of opinions along the political spectrum enjoy expressing and debating their views in a spirited manner, free from insults, bigotry and denigrating comments. If you enjoy discussing these important and often polarizing issues in a passionate, yet respectful manner, I look forward to getting to know you and working with you to create a forum people will enjoy visiting and contributing to. You can be as committed, determined and relentless as you like in advocating for your position. Be persuasive, thought provoking and challenging. But be nice.
I want to thank tame_deuces and King Spew for their support in bringing me onboard and for all the time and effort they have put into making the forum better. While I am taking over most of the day to day modding responsibilities, both are retaining their mod status and superpowers, and will be supporting the forum as their availability permits. And I personally welcome their continued advice and feedback.
Again, I am happy to be here and look forward to getting to know you.
Browser
This is completey wrong.
It's like calling gay people mentally ill. That's deeply prejudiced and offensive. Nothing whatsover to do with mentally ill people being treated badly which is a different serious problem.
If mentally ill people were constantly held up as the most respected members of society, preferred for leadership positions, lauded as making great parents etc., I doubt many gay people would be upset to be called mentally ill.
There are absolutely very real, tangible ramifications for being diagnosed with a mental illness. While not fair, it is a very real part of life. That's why, for example, military members, esp those who require a high level security clearance, are so reluctant to seek help for mental health issues. Same with police and others whose job requires the use of firearms. A diagnosis of a mental illness causes people to lose jobs. WwIt is hard en
I agree with this.
I disagree with this.
Browser, your job as a mod is not to enforce your opinion on others. It's to provide a space for others to express their opinions.
The book is called “ Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders”. If something is in that book it is, by definition, a mental disorder and gender dysphoria is in there. Not all of those people may have that diagnosis but if they do then by definition they suffer from……a mental disorder. Just like depression. Anxiety. Psychosis. Etc.
A person’s speech represents their perception of life. By compelling
people with mental disorders have mental disorder no one is denying. But the rules that are being laid is not compelled speech. I take great offense to that accusation.
Its stating that transgender people aren't necessarily dysphoric which agree with.
browser2920 if someone IS gender dysphoric are they crazy and/or less welcome here!?
Any post in which you said it was a bad thing to say that all trans people are mentally ill. So bad that it will no longer be allowed.
I don't think you would have been upset by someone saying that all trans people were quite attractive, more intelligent than average, and generally very admirable.
If mentally ill people were constantly held up as the most respected members of society, preferred for leadership positions, lauded as making great parents etc., I doubt many gay people would be upset to be called mentally ill.
Generally we're concerned with harm so if you remove the harm and add bonuses then maybe we dont care.
In this world its' harmful to a group who are very vulnerable in society.
Browser, your job as a mod is not to enforce your opinion on others. It's to provide a space for others to express their opinions.
The company provides the space. My job is to ensure that site and forum guidelines are followed. But this is a private site, and not all opinions are open for discussion here. For an extreme example, do you think this site should allow someone to make a series of posts expressing that all gay people should be rounded up and killed because god said the punishment for homosexuality is death? Should he be allowed to post in detail how the rounding up and execution of the gay people would be conducted? And do you think that person has some sort of "right" to post that opinion under some sort of complete misinterpretation of the free speech right that only pertains to government censorship and has nothing to do with private companies?
Browser, your job as a mod is not to enforce your opinion on others. It's to provide a space for others to express their opinions.
That’s the problem though. No one has a space to provide opinions on trans issues because we allow such an extreme view that it causes distress and no debate or reasonable discussion can be had.
hypothetically let’s say a group of people, who had a dominant voice on a forum insisted that the answer to the issues and claims of a minority group was that the group in question doesn’t exist and instead of existing, they are all tricky “pretenders” then the entire debate becomes whether that minority group exists or whether they are “pretenders” . This doesn’t open up debate, it closes it. We can no longer address any of that groups issues which may be very interesting and complicated.
Whether the minority group in question is black americans, ethnicities in Asia , lesbians , or trans doesn’t make a difference, it’s wrong in all of those cases. And it certainly doesn’t increase the overton window.
The problem isn't in saying that trans people have mental illnesses, it's in saying that their being transgender is the mental illness. The implication (often explicitly stated) is that they aren't really trans, but instead that's a delusion they have. This invalidates the very existence of transgender. This just isn't comparable to someone with depression or anxiety.
Chillrob: You are a great poster imo, and we tend to see eye to eye on most issues. I also enjoy your posts in other areas of 2p2. I did not mean to imply that you stigmatize trans people in any way. That is an incredibly interesting post, and I'm trying to wrap my head around the thoughts you laid out. Many of them are not things I had previously considered.
I'm not sure if I "have depression" or "am depressed" due to an event a few years ago, but I think I can relate and that is an interesting way of looking at the issue. I can actually see a lot of what you mention in myself. What you wrote reminds me of a documentary I watched on Temple Grandin and her thoughts on neurodiversity. I agree that it has benefits, however it's also something that I wouldn't wish on anyone for any reason; it's a difficult topic.
One place where I see a difference is that I do not think that being trans automatically makes someone's life more difficult except for the way that people view trans people. In an imaginary world where everyone accepted trans people for who they are, and also accepted depressed people for who they are, I think that depressed people would still have a more difficult life but trans people would not necessarily have a more difficult life. In fact I think that for some people in that imaginary world, choosing to transition would improve their life.
I think that being trans is a choice. I do not think that depression is a choice. That is another key difference in my opinion and I don't think that both originating in someone's brain accurately captures this key difference.
Overall what you said seems like an argument that both depression and being trans are incorrectly labeled as "mental illnesses". I believe that removing that label from transitioning is a step in the right direction, and would definitely entertain an argument that depression should also not have that label.
The problem isn't in saying that trans people have mental illnesses, it's in saying that their being transgender is the mental illness. The implication (often explicitly stated) is that they aren't really trans, but instead that's a delusion they have. This invalidates the very existence of transgender. This just isn't comparable to someone with depression or anxiety.
Well put.
The company provides the space. My job is to ensure that site and forum guidelines are followed. But this is a private site, and not all opinions are open for discussion here. For an extreme example, do you think this site should allow someone to make a series of posts expressing that all gay people should be rounded up and killed because god said the punishment for homosexuality is death? Should he be allowed to post in detail how the rou
You've responded to all of mine, and others' criticism of this particular decision, but you left off replying to the post where I clarified what I meant by the Overton Window, and you have neglected to address any other points I have made to this effect.
I will be very clear and specific, without using any terms that may be subject to misunderstanding now.
I think that your decision in this particular matter, while well-intentioned, is misguided and over-reaching. You have over-stepped from policing tone, which in and of itself was undesirable, to policing content, which is likely to kill off this forum. If you are going to ban this content, you should also ban anyone from suggesting anthropogenic climate change is not real - as far as "established science" goes, it's probably the same thing.
You clearly have some sort of vision for this forum, but I assure you, if you carry on in this manner, you will be a moderating a forum comprising a number of posters you can count on the fingers of one hand well before this vision comes to fruition.
You need to understand the motivations people have for still posting here before you decide to take a broom and sweep them away. There is no eternal font replenishing them.
Any post in which you said it was a bad thing to say that all trans people are mentally ill. So bad that it will no longer be allowed.
I don't think you would have been upset by someone saying that all trans people were quite attractive, more intelligent than average, and generally very admirable.
So you equate a policy that says people cannot falsely state that an entire group of people is mentally ill when they are not as having a personal bias against depressed and mentally ill people? I just cant follow any sort of logic train that gets you to that conclusion. I don't have to have a bias against someone with a mental illness to recognize the harmful and discriminatory effects that befall someone who does. You are also aware of those negative effects. They are real.
So there are two main problems with insisting someone without a mental illness has one:
First, it's false.
Second, it subjects the person to discriminatory actions based on a total falsehood.
Believing either one or two above is no indication at all that I have a bias against those with mental illness.
This sub needs more moderation, not less. At some point discussions need to proceed past false arguments in order for actual discussion to occur. At the very least, repetitive arguments with no new data to support them need to be moved into a separate discussion.
The problem isn't in saying that trans people have mental illnesses, it's in saying that their being transgender is the mental illness. The implication (often explicitly stated) is that they aren't really trans, but instead that's a delusion they have. This invalidates the very existence of transgender. This just isn't comparable to someone with depression or anxiety.
I have no idea whether this is right or not, but my problem is people with opinions contrary to this being told they can't have one. I'm pretty sure you'd agree this is not settled science.
So you equate a policy that says people cannot falsely state that an entire group of people is mentally ill when they are not as having a personal bias against depressed and mentally ill people? I just cant follow any sort of logic train that gets you to that conclusion. I don't have to have a bias against someone with a mental illness to recognize the harmful and discriminatory effects that befall someone who does. You are also aware of
I have an issue with Trump supporters. First, everything they say is total lies. Second, everything they say is total lies.
Do we ban them all?
Let's just sit around here and have a circle jerk congratulating one another on all the true things we all agree on, right?
i don't think this is appropriate, he asked politely to better understand the genesis of the policy
imagine if there were a policy that said you could only use pronouns of the their sex and thus only call lia thomas a he and you politely asked the origin to that rule and got laughed at by a mod
The rule wasn't of my creation, and I'm not a mod of this forum. Sure, I'm an admin and I know some believe that mods and admins need to carry themselves a certain way on the forums, but that's not realistic IMO, unless we're not going to be posters as well. That said, I try not to go around ripping people apart on a regular basis, especially in reply to a question about modding policy. But do you really think this question you think is needing a fulsome response?
Explain your interest in this issue, where it comes from, how you arrived at your views and why you are convinced that no views other than yours are acceptable.
I regularly ban spammers - would you like to know what my interest is in spam, and where it comes from? Yes, I know that's a silly example, but so are those questions IMO. He already explained how he arrived at his views, and for that matter, why he's convinced that calling all transgender people mentally ill is a problem. Is that really a big mystery? I mean, I get why some might feel policing it in this manner is an overreach, but it shouldn't be hard to figure out how someone could arrive at the conclusion that people shouldn't be allowed to go around saying all transgender people are mentally ill, even if you don't agree with that conclusion. I get why 57 is going down this road, as he has been one of the worst in this forum for transphobic comments; I don't think it's worthy of a serious response.
Yes, and you still didn't make it clear what that silly statement means, IMO. I have shown how it doesn't (or at least shouldn't) mean that all trans people are mentally ill. Saying someone is mentally ill doesn't mean they don't exist.
As someone who has suffered from mental illness most of his life I also don't appreciate all the negativity about it - particularly the constant implication that mental illness is a terrible thing to discus
Browser explained pretty well the belief that some have:
There is no actual thing being transgender. Transgender people do not exist. It is simply the delusion of a regular person with a mental illness.
And that's the kind of thing people are arguing against. If that still doesn't make sense to you, I honestly don't know what more to say.
If mentally ill people were constantly held up as the most respected members of society, preferred for leadership positions, lauded as making great parents etc., I doubt many gay people would be upset to be called mentally ill.
Really? Keep in mind that in this analogy of yours, those people would be called mentally ill because they are gay. Pretty sure most gay people would be upset with that, and not because of this silliness:
Obviously you and browser and some others have a bias against those with depression and other 'mental illnesses'.
No. Ganstaman explains it well here:
The problem isn't in saying that trans people have mental illnesses, it's in saying that their being transgender is the mental illness. The implication (often explicitly stated) is that they aren't really trans, but instead that's a delusion they have. This invalidates the very existence of transgender. This just isn't comparable to someone with depression or anxiety.
The term "mental illness" carries a lot of negative connotations, but as applied, every single poster on this forum and 90%+ of the humans on earth are probably "mentally ill".
To me, it's just a meaningless term.
Sure, because you have the luxury that there isn't part of your existence that other people tell you isn't real, but the result of a mental illness.
You've responded to all of mine, and others' criticism of this particular decision, but you left off replying to the post where I clarified what I meant by the Overton Window, and you have neglected to address any other points I have made to this effect.
I will be very clear and specific, without using any terms that may be subject to misunderstanding now.
I think that your decision in this particular matter, while well-intentioned, is misgu
First off, the Overton model has nothing to do with any of this. It was a model to show how political policies move from extremes to mainstream. You say its use has been modified for other things. If you have an Overton model produced by some organization that actually lays out the spectrum of pokicies irt transgender issues Id be glad to take a look at it. But really, any particular model of what are the current hot topics in politics will hardly be prescriptive in any sense as it relates to this issue.
The difference between whether someone posts that climate change is manmade or not and that all transgender people are mentally ill is that the transgender people are all mentally ill directly affects a group of human beings on a personal level in real time. It has been and is continued to be used to justify all sorts of discriminatory laws. The debate in the eyes of the major medical and psychiatric organizations is over, whether some want to admit it or not. The DSM5 changed their position on this over 10 years ago. Its not even a recent change.
And to quote Meisner:
The book is called “ Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders”. If something is in that book it is, by definition, a mental disorder and gender dysphoria is in there.
And so the converse must also be true: if something is not listed as a mental illness, by definition it is not. Transgender is not.
Even though the tobacco companies had data as early as the 1950s about the addictiveness of nicotine and the link between cigarettes and lung cancer, you could still find scientists in the 2000s who maintain there is no link. So the "its not settled science" excuse is used regularly to sow doubt on what is actually settled science.
I find it hard to believe that there are so many people in this forum that so badly feel they must make the case that all transgender people are mentally ill that the forum will dry up as a result of this policy. I fail to see how this issue can be of such burning importance to them, except for having the ability to attack and denigrate a group of people. So if they feel like they must leave this forum simply because they cant falsely claim that all transgender people are mentally ill, then I wish them well. They will be welcomed at other sites.
The problem isn't in saying that trans people have mental illnesses, it's in saying that their being transgender is the mental illness. The implication (often explicitly stated) is that they aren't really trans, but instead that's a delusion they have. This invalidates the very existence of transgender. This just isn't comparable to someone with depression or anxiety.
Obviously the illness is Gender Dysphoria. I don't claim that all trans people have GD, but I think for someone to go to the trouble and side effects of taking hormones and/or getting surgery, they must be pretty unhappy with their lives, in a way that likely is similar to depression.
Well I like the rule. I've been calling for it for a very long time. I was banned for many years and constantly berated told I had a mental illness by loud and influential members. It leaves you defenseless and feeling a deep sense of injustice I wouldn't wish on anyone but those that dish it out themselves (although thats somewhat a self-contradicting sentiment). Posters in this sub still do it to me-I'm happy its now against rules. Something I have always said and know from first hand experience, its a terrible weapon to use against someone. To have propriety think and treat someone as being crazy as a tool of ignorance.
I think we should re-iterate, people with dysphoria are welcome and should feel comfortable, the only change is that its spam and harassment to assert trans means dysphoric.
