Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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So you agree that this would result in Israel suffering increased casualties because they would send a massive amount of troops and tanks into Gaza. I'm not asking about the effectiveness of bullets vs bombs, I'm asking about the number of civilian casualties in this scenario. They would be astronomically high.
I don’t see how civilian deaths would increase here relative to explosives from above.
I mean unless you’re talking about IDF doing it on purpose which you could be.
And yes of course more Israelis would die but they aren’t civilians, they are military. Your job is kinda go be a target and sacrifice yourself for your fellow countrymen
It’s way way way way way way way way way harder to indiscriminately kill with bullets and light machine guns in an urban setting versus explosives.
Except you are:
yes I am seeing that 10:1 is indeed what the USA reports.
this shows that I am indeed a victim of USA propaganda once again bc I remember reading about how the dumb Russians were at like 3 or 5 to 1 during this Ukrainian war.
regardless, 10:1 would still put the numbers much higher than 184.
Lol at suggesting the situation in Israel is going to favor worse death rates than something like occupying Afghanistan or Iraq. Good lawd.
Well per your article, soldiers transferred to another hospital get counted twice. Soldiers admitted for reasons unrelated to wounds received in battle get counted. You can also read my posts on why getting soldiers to hospital speedily is a good indicator of reduced death, not increased. I don't count these things as fudging, just errors in the method of gathering this stat and comparing it unknown military criteria as well as an overall f
this is actually what it said lol
Some soldiers might have been registered as wounded in two hospitals after they were transferred from one hospital to another.
but anyway, call it 2250. thats still 225 dead from a month ago. close combat has def intensified since then esp when the invasion didnt start until Oct 27. but thats fine, lets be conservative and just take a third of it and say 3500 or so. thats 350.
the most conservative estimate doubles your numbers.
Except you are:
Lol at suggesting the situation in Israel is going to favor worse death rates than something like occupying Afghanistan or Iraq. Good lawd.
Yea it would be way worse. Israel already killed tons of civilians. Eventually it’s just going to be guys hiding behind rocks that they can never see but they lose 5 guys a day
Yea it would be way worse. Israel already killed tons of civilians. Eventually it’s just going to be guys hiding behind rocks that they can never see but they lose 5 guys a day
theres tons of videos of Hamas just sniping Israel dudes standing by windows. or firing incendiary grenades at them and taking out entire floors of buildings. like, wasnt the first thing you learned to not stand by windows?
theres tons of videos of dudes popping out of holes in the ground and placing bombs on tanks.
I would absolutely not want to be a tank operator in Gaza right now. although I do wonder how fatal those blasts are. it certainly makes the tank immobile but I would imagine the crew usually survives.
Your refusal to answer suggests that you are able to see the flaw in your logic. This is not cherry picking, it an illustration of ignoring the nuance of a specific situation and relying on overgeneralization in an attempt to spread a false narrative. You understand the concept of overgeneralization right?
Israel's easy access to, and ability to, get soldiers to hospitals quicker rather than slower is not evidence that they are suffering mo
I think they are probably doing a lot better than the politically motivated suicide mission across the river in Ukraine yes. I am not sure why that is the benchmark.
I would absolutely not want to be a tank operator in Gaza right now. although I do wonder how fatal those blasts are. it certainly makes the tank immobile but I would imagine the crew usually survives.
I am sure some soldiers are getting wounded and killed, which sucks. But there is a reason all the Hamas propaganda videos stop the second they hit the tank. Because most of the time it does absolutely nothing. Zero. Zip. Squat.
Israel sometimes shows videos where Hamas hit a tank with whatever it is they hit it with, and the tank just keeps rolling.
why wouldnt it be about a similar rate? its close combat against an entrenched opponent in a rubble filled urban area.
We (us army in iraq, not me) didn’t destroy residential areas like Israel does. We let people in live in them and then you and three of your buddies stack up on the door, kick it in and decide to kill or subdue the people inside. I think you’re supposed to not kill them but it depends on the year. 03-06 was wild I guess
I am sure some soldiers are getting wounded and killed, which sucks. But there is a reason all the Hamas propaganda videos stop the second they hit the tank. Because most of the time it does absolutely nothing. Zero. Zip. Squat.
Israel sometimes shows videos where Hamas hit a tank with whatever it is they hit it with, and the tank just keeps rolling.
Wait until Hamas learns how to kill tanks. Hopefully they don’t actually learn.
They used EFPs in iraq. Explosively formed projectiles. You heat up molten metal and then send it through a tank. Nothing can stop it. Everyone dies.
Tanks are also extremely vulnerable to IEDs. So they will figure out Israeli battle tactics and bait tanks into death zones.
It will be really wild when the US gets caught funding some guy who ends up advising Palestine Hamas guys. Israel will be pissed! I’m talking in hypotheticals of course, but that’s what ends up happening every war ; we end up fighting guys that we might be supporting in a round about way
I don’t see how civilian deaths would increase here relative to explosives from above.
I mean unless you’re talking about IDF doing it on purpose which you could be.
And yes of course more Israelis would die but they aren’t civilians, they are military. Your job is kinda go be a target and sacrifice yourself for your fellow countrymen
It’s way way way way way way way way way harder to indiscriminately kill with bulle
Yes, they would be doing it on purpose. Removing aid fundamentally changes the war. Israel would be in a do or die, kill or be killed, scenario. They would choose to kill, as just about anyone would do in such a situation. On top of that you are removing all of the forces demanding that Israel restrain themselves, and all of the incentives to do so.
If you add on top of this the fact that more Israelis would die, as you said, Israel would restrain themselves even less. Many are already criticizing Israel's reluctance to accept casualties in order to drastically reduce the number of civilians killed. As Israeli casualties add up they would be less discriminate and it would quickly devolve into a far worse situation. As the ability of the Iron Dome to strike down rockets began to fail this would make the problem even worse. The situation would be awful.
The effectiveness of bullets vs explosives would not be the factor at play here. The factor at play here is putting Israel on a countdown to total destruction.
I fail to see the difference much less a lolworthy difference.
but anyway, call it 2250. thats still 225 dead from a month ago. close combat has def intensified since then esp when the invasion didnt start until Oct 27. but thats fine, lets be conservative and just take a third of it and say 3500 or so. thats 350.
the most conservative estimate doubles your numbers.
OK let's take into account that hospital visit doesn't necessarily mean wounded in a military sense, and that Israel's ability to get wounded to hospitals quicker than the statistic you're comparing it to means far more survive, and that Hamas is not inflicting the same type of wounds and they are more survivable and divide your number by two and we get FEWER deaths than Israel is reporting!!!!!!! (I'm not seriously suggesting this.) You're comparing apples to oranges in multiple areas and then using that as proof that Israel is lying. There are more relevant statistics. There's also the fact that so far I haven't seen any Israelis claiming that a soldier's death has not been counted, or that they have not had contact with or been given the body of their dead relative. There's pretty much nothing to suggest that Israel is not being honest here, even if someone reported on hospital visits and compared that to an unknown metric of what the military considers wounded. Even if we accepted your figure, it's pretty far from "getting ****ed up by the Hamas military."
why wouldnt it be about a similar rate? its close combat against an entrenched opponent in a rubble filled urban area.
Look up what "entrenched" means.
I think they are probably doing a lot better than the politically motivated suicide mission across the river in Ukraine yes. I am not sure why that is the benchmark.
It's not a suicide mission... is there a Russian propaganda narrative that you are not willing to spread? It's also not the benchmark. As I've now said multiple times it's to illustrate the flaw in your overgeneralization of higher wounds always equal more deaths because all situations are 10:1 wound to death. It's a major flaw in logic.
Wait until Hamas learns how to kill tanks. Hopefully they don’t actually learn.
They used EFPs in iraq. Explosively formed projectiles. You heat up molten metal and then send it through a tank. Nothing can stop it. Everyone dies.
Tanks are also extremely vulnerable to IEDs. So they will figure out Israeli battle tactics and bait tanks into death zones.
It will be really wild when the US gets caught funding some guy who ends up advising
If you supposedly care about Palestinians in Gaza, I am not sure why you would be rooting for Israel to lose. Israel winning is the only path towards any future for Palestinians. As long as Hamas is around there is no future. The blockade will just get tighter and tighter, and the land Hamas controls will get smaller and smaller. Nothing is getting rebuilt until Hamas is gone, just more and more being destroyed.
The saudi deal was supposed to decrease the israeli presence in gaza
For the next 10 years now Israel will have an increased presence in the border
Sorry bgp but when ammo is low you conserve ammo and choose a different type of combat or a defensive one not an offensive one.
Cutting funding cuts deaths plain and simple
You're grossly overestimating how much is reliant on USA's. They have an extremely capable defense industry. Without aid they would still have plenty of ammo, they would just be reliant on less efficient, more person to person, means and not have anything holding them back.
They wouldn't run out of all ammo.
Your analysis is also completely backwards. Israel would not just wait to get exterminated.
Nobody is capable of exterminating Israel if Israel is acting defensively.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-us-eme...
Guess Israel needing ammo like this was just for show. President has only bypassed congress four times in last 40 years for this
But yea, Israel doesn’t need US ammo nor aid.
Sure
theres tons of videos of Hamas just sniping Israel dudes standing by windows. or firing incendiary grenades at them and taking out entire floors of buildings. like, wasnt the first thing you learned to not stand by windows?
theres tons of videos of dudes popping out of holes in the ground and placing bombs on tanks.
I would absolutely not want to be a tank operator in Gaza right now. although I do wonder how fatal those blasts are. it cer
They're strategically placing those explosives on the tank to disable the active armor. Once disabled the tank is vulnerable to even RPG's I believe as a one-two punch.
Israel would be taking massive losses if they tried to clear the place house by house before leveling it with their air power. I guess it's a lot easier to explain to their electorate obscene amounts of foreign civilian casualties as opposed to 5x the amount of Israelis coming back in body bags. Their concern is preserving their soldier's lives over Palestinian civilians at pretty much any cost which I think is probably par for the course in most wars. I guess some armies would let a possible target escape if the situation was going to be either excessive civilian casualties or taking on too much risk for their own forces depending on the war's objective. Israel ain't playing that.
I want to say since I was a kid it was a running joke (probably not the best choice of word there) that if someone ****ed with Israel you were going to be in a world of hurt as they dgaf and will fight back with everything they have. Nothing going on at the moment should be surprising to many, least of all Hamas.
Spoiler
31 minutes, 11 seconds in.
Not that there was ever any doubt, despite Vic's fantasy
Nobody is capable of exterminating Israel if Israel is acting defensively.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-us-eme...
Guess Israel needing ammo like this was just for show. President has only bypassed congress four times in last 40 years for this
But yea, Israel doesn’t need US ammo nor aid.
Sure
OK let's look at what is being sent:
The sale is worth $106.5 million and includes 13,981 120 mm High Explosive Anti-Tank Multi-Purpose with Tracer tank cartridges as well as U.S. support, engineering and logistics. The materiel will come from Army inventory.
These are highly specialized, far more expensive, and used for greater precision. This is important for specific targeting and minimizing collateral damage. Much as USA trying to get Israel precision guided missiles does not mean that Israel is running out of non precision missiles, USA trying to get Israel precision tank shells, (which are also far more expensive) does not mean that Israel is running out of non precision tank shells.
We've been over why Israel focuses on the cheaper arms: because they are focused on an existential threat and delivering as much damage as possible in the case of such an event. They were not focused on precision. Now that they've found themselves in a situation where they need precision USA is trying to get them precision to reduce civilian casualties. Without these civilian casualties would be higher.
(Also lol at saying that Israel does not face any existential threat in the same post that suggests that they are literally running out of ammo. Something is wrong there.)
there are plenty of other rules. and there is de facto discrimination.
I am not sure what the Arab nations expelling Jewish people has to do with Palestinians in Gaza in 2024. it sound like you are trying to use it to justify the discrimination against Palestinians? I dont follow or see the pertinence.
You know, it's kinda like when others complain about something bad Russia does, and your answer is always that the US does the same thing or worse.
I do link the Palestinians with all of their Arab Muslim brothers who nearly always support each other in fighting Israel.
Or, they could decide to use their nukes. Or poison gas (I don't know if they actually have that, but it would be quite ironic).
Or they could drive tanks over everything in the cities. Or instead of slowing down the supply trucks, they could set every single one of them on fire.
Or, hey, maybe they could burn up all the cities with Jewish space lasers. MTG seems to think they have them.
It's incredible that you guys actually seem to the current situation is the actual worst case scenario. Gaza is not very big. If they wanted to kill every resident it wouldn't take long for them to do it. Maybe the cowardly Hamas leaders would survive awhile longer in their underground tunnels.
OK let's look at what is being sent:
These are highly specialized, far more expensive, and used for greater precision. This is important for specific targeting and minimizing collateral damage. Much as USA trying to get Israel precision guided missiles does not mean that Israel is running out of non precision missiles, USA trying to get Israel precision tank shells, (which are also far more expensive) does not mean that Israel is running out
On what’s Israel’s existential threat and how would it go down?
Tank shells aren’t as precision as you think. They take out Buildings. Nothing less.
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You know, it's kinda like when others complain about something bad Russia does, and your answer is always that the US does the same thing or worse.
I do link the Palestinians with all of their Arab Muslim brothers who nearly always support each other in fighting Israel.
no its not. not at all. people try to appeal to the goodness and morality of the USA to justify its foreign policy positions. I simply point out that the USA is not to be believed and should not be considered the moral authority.
the Palestinians had nothing to do with whatever happened to Jews in Morocco or Iraq or Iran or wherever 50-100 years ago.
like thousands of miles away and 50 years ago something bad happened to some Jews by some Arabs and you think that justifies oppression on Palestinians bc they are the same race?
ok good thing we got these precision bombs
