Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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No absolutely not. A buffer zone, cyber attacks on Iran, an assassination programme on Hamas leadership and members. Beefing up their intel game. I'm not saying they should be submissive but surely they can come up with more viable methods than what they're currently doing.
No absolutely not. A buffer zone, cyber attacks on Iran, an assassination programme on Hamas leadership and members. Beefing up their intel game. I'm not saying they should be submissive but surely they can come up with more viable methods than what they're currently doing.
And the buffer zone makes gaza smaller. Who allows that?
And israel occupies the zone? Or shoots anybody that crosses the line and then what?
Do they leave without the hostages?
I think the killing has slown down tremendously. Maybe from us pressure idk
Hamas is still shooting rockets now from civilian areas
So not sure what you expect Israel to do exactly but I'm open to anything
I'm not saying there's easy answers, there clearly isn't. I mooted opinions on what they could conceivably do in my other response and I acknowledge it's a horrible and convoluted situation at present. But again where does it actually end? Would they be justified in nuking Iran for example, to prevent funding and training of proxy groups? Or Gaza to sort the Hamas problem out once and for all? Where's the line in the sand here? And please don;t say it would be over if only Hamas surrendered as we both know they won't do that. At what point does the civilian toll become unacceptable to you? And if your answer is "never" then yet again why not just tactical nuke 'em if that's the case? That'll defeat Hamas after all, no? Or would that be unacceptable?
If you mean in general then okay. I don't subscribe to the Israel Bad narrative. Nor do I regard them as occupiers/colonists/apartheid state and all the other bs that's flung their way and I think such accusations are at heart due to by a healthy dose of anti Semitism from some quarters. They can't use the destruction of Hamas as justification for their current methods though. The civilian cost is too great. Israel is better than that. The
How is the West bank not an apartheid state?
And ofc international law considers Gaza occupied.
So what if it makes Gaza smaller, that's what Hamas get for launching a murderous bloodthirsty pogrom. Boo hoo for Hamas.
And israel occupies the zone? Or shoots anybody that crosses the line and then what?
Yes.
Rhere isn't a "then what?", they shoot anyone who crosses the line. Better than killing thousands via collateral damage, no?
Do they leave without the hostages?
I don't know. That's up to Israel. Is the current bombings helping the hostages? Some of them were accidentally and tragically killed by the IDF which would be expected. They should continue to negotiate if they can and if they get them back then engage in the things I mentioned. Are there any hostages even alive at this point?
Yeah that must be it.
Ill be she has a Mein Kampf book in her dorm
seems to me that israel's choices are centered around taking as few risks as possible with IDF lives, with minimal regard for palestinian civilian lives and property, while keeping up maximum pressure on hamas
i would be much happier if the IDF took on more risk in exchange for less carnage, but i recognise that its very easy to park oneself on the moral high ground when someone else has to pay the cost
seems to me that israel's choices are centered around taking as few risks as possible with IDF lives, with minimal regard for palestinian civilian lives and property, while keeping up maximum pressure on hamas
i would be much happier if the IDF took on more risk in exchange for less carnage, but i recognise that its very easy to park oneself on the moral high ground when someone else has to pay the cost
I hear you on both points, but It could be argued that it's easy to engage in justification when someone else such as thousands of civilians are paying the cost.
Corpus i agree with most of what you say
The citizens of Israel would assassinate Bibi if they withdrew from gaza without the hostages though.
The death toll is about 25k in 115 days
Israel claims 8k are hamas
Hamas won't confirm or deny and consider all people are the same
So for argument sake let's say 20k civilians in 115 days or 175 a day
Awful. Horrible. Sad.
I don't think anyone in this thread is happy about that
Hamas is still shooting rockets from civilian areas
What should Israel do about that?
You guys think after Hamas is eradicated then the next group will just be good little capos?
No. Of course not. The entire society is radicalized, devoted to the destruction of Israel at any cost. With Qatar and Iran providing them the materials for their Holy War. Hamas leaves, the next group just steps up. Islamic Jihad, Lions Den, or whatever.
And the entire world, Muslim and the West, is complicit in allowing this to happen. It is a truly hopeless situation. The only sane solution would be to someone to come in and use whatever force was necessary to deradicalize them. Or to stop providing them aid just to squander on war. But there is no will for this.
Honestly, it seems like except for the US the Western world has mostly given up; and they would let Iran, the Palestinians and the Houthis destroy the entire Capitalist system; despite how trivial it would be to stop them if the will was there.
Civilization and progress is something you have to be willing to fight for, and there is very little will, and it looks like things are going to just get worse looking at how pathetic younger generations are; so I guess the world will just go back to the 7th century.
Well Israel is doing a good job turning Gaza into a cash free society b stealing it all.
Of course they don't. They need to destroy hamas or have them surrender
They do not want to occupy it but i was asked to what end. I answered
You don't think they should withdraw with Hamas remaining in power do you?
I think it's pretty much inevitable unfortunately.
https://warontherocks.com/2024/01/remaki...
Occupying Gaza unilaterally, which is what it seems that Israel will have to do at least for some time since it has closed off other viable alternatives, will require more than 80,000 soldiers if it is done correctly, based on a 2010 planning estimate from the Institute for Defense Analyses.
I don't think that Israel can do this. Maybe I'm wrong though. I think eventually Saudi Arabia gets them to allow PA or someone else to take over, and I think that's best for everyone. I also think that Biden's patience isn't infinite, especially in such an important year where he's going to risk losing voters with what he will inevitably occur after he has to compromise with the border.
https://www.axios.com/2024/01/14/biden-n...
I think Israel will have to do some form of a 2 state solution. They will have to let someone govern Gaza. Saudi Arabia is going to have a difficult time having a relationship with Israel when they are occupying Gaza, and dealing with the inevitable awful headlines that will come from that. The sooner Israel wakes up to this fact the better.
my expectation is that once the leadership are dead and the infrastructure (mainly the tunnels) are ctrl-alt-del'd then hamas will fall apart very quickly. local interests will start to jostle for post-hamas power, and the majority of the surviving foot soldiers will conclude that the shoah they were promised is very much off
Awhile ago ISW wrote about how once Israel enters this phase of the operation Hamas will begin recruiting. I think they'll have an easy time doing so after the deaths and destruction caused in this campaign.
I think Israel will have to do some form of a 2 state solution. They will have to let someone govern Gaza. Saudi Arabia is going to have a difficult time having a relationship with Israel when they are occupying Gaza, and dealing with the inevitable awful headlines that will come from that. The sooner Israel wakes up to this fact the better.
I think you are factoring in a Palestinian willingness to go along that just doesn't exist. I think it is completely apparent they would completely sabotage anything anyone tries to do, which is why no one wants to deal with them. Israel tried to give Gaza to Egypt (prime Mediterranean beachfront) and they could't give it away. Egypt cant build their walls high, deep or thick enough to insulate themselves from the Palestinians.
And the world will just let this continue indefinitely, and keep funding and supporting such antisocial behavior.
Vic
Should the US intervene when genocide happens ?
Usually you are against US intervention worldwide in almost any other instance .
Attempts from inside Gaza to sabotage peace have been factored in, it's still the best "solution" out of a series of very bad options.
Egypt doesn't want the Palestinians for multiple reasons, They do not want to occupy Gaza, or be responsibly for the attacks originating from Gaza which Israel will respond to. I don't know what point you think this proves.
The death toll is about 25k in 115 days
Israel claims 8k are hamas
Hamas won't confirm or deny and consider all people are the same
So for argument sake let's say 20k civilians in 115 days or 175 a day
Awful. Horrible. Sad.
I don't think anyone in this thread is happy about that
Hamas is still shooting rockets from civilian areas
What should Israel do about that?
Stop killing Palestinians, probably.
