Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
tbh i very very strongly oppose Russia but i don't call the events in ukraine an attempted genocide, because they definitly aren't.
Actions can be morally horrifying, disastrous, a lot of lives can be taken against justice, without a series of events being a genocide.
Chinese actions with uighurs are a genocide, the forced sterilizations / abortions are the strongest element that allows us to call it such.
Russia "only" wants to subjugate the
It's my fault the Russia comment will turn this into a side tangent, but if we apply the Genocide Convention we are very very close to genocide with respect to Russian actions:
Intent to:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Russia has forcibly removed thousands of Ukrainian children from Ukraine, destroying whole cities in Eastern Ukraine.
It would be fair to tick off boxes A, B ,C and E.
It's my fault the Russia comment will turn this into a side tangent, but if we apply the Genocide Convention we are very very close to genocide with respect to Russian actions:
Intent to:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intend
Ok but (and this applies to israel as well as any other situation where we discuss potential genocide) a) , b) and c) have to be understood in "without any other reason".
Like it's not genocide to kill enemies in a war, nor it is to disregard collateral damage. It is to bomb a civilian target, with no other reason that "nice, that would kill people of group X".
Or torture civilians just because they are of ethnicity X (that would be b) and so on.
Russia did e) clearly, although it's unclear to which extent (a lot of ukrainian children got forcibly moved to russia, but afaik a lot of adults as well, and they often matched? not sure).
a) b) c) russia mostly did to conquer territory, not "just so we can kill as many ukrainians as possible"
Which btw is what i think israel is doing in gaza as well, although i agree some far right israeli, and some far right russians, would actually love to implement actual genocidal policies.
It's my fault the Russia comment will turn this into a side tangent, but if we apply the Genocide Convention we are very very close to genocide with respect to Russian actions:
Intent to:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intend
How many "genocides" do you think are going on in the world right now? Sounds like you should think there are 20+.
I mean if you want to call what is going on in Gaza genocide, then that is your prerogative. But by this rubric you should include Pakistan, Aizerbaijan, Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, Nigeria, China, Russia and probably 10 places in sub Saharan Africa we are barely aware of.
My biggest problem of all this is the UN is completely political, has no first principles, and pretty much just focuses on Israel (and actively makes things worse by supporting radicalization and terrorism in Gaza) and ignores the rest of the world. The UN actually ruled there was nothing bad going on in China in regard to the Uighur's.
Also, when a nation state of 15 million people is told repeatedly by a smaller, technologically, militarily inferior neighbor they will be destroyed and that neighbor continually follows through with this threat to the best of their abilities, "genocide" of said neighbor until they lose the will/ability to follow through on their own genocidal urges, is the completely reasonable, rationale and expected response.
I would argue Israel's historical restraint has been its major problem that has caused all this problem. This should have been handled 50 years ago, and everyone would have moved on and be in a better place, most especially the Palestinians.
This is in opposition to the Arab countries and Iran that committed genocide on all (or at least the vast majority) of their Jews as collective punishment long ago, and everyone has moved on and there is no issues in these countries.
the court absolutely did not rule there was no genocide. I am not sure why this idea keeps getting repeated. certainly coming from somewhere in the Israeli propaganda echo chamber.
but the court ruled there was plausible evidence of genocide and that Israel will now go to trial.
To be honest, if this is going to take decades most of us will probably lose interest. So it is going to be up to you to keep the fire burning and keep us all updated how the trial is going.
Also, the oil tanker the Houthis hit is still burning, and all the oil could spill into the sea causing a major ecological disaster.
It is going to be very ironic when leftists (who simultaneous support the demise of the American Empire and ecological preservation) finally realize loss of the former is going to result in cataclysmic ecological degradation, as war explodes across the world in the vacuum of American power dissipating and literally destroys the planet.
Of course, anyone who has any understanding of how the world works can see this is exactly what is going to happen. But no one every accused far leftists of having any understanding of how the world actually works.
Forcibly moving a population from their cities and systematically destroying every square inch of that said city counts as genocide. The intent is there, every square footage of northern Gaza is destroyed.
What else am I supposed to call it? Special military operation?
No the intent is to destroy Hamas who hide among the Gaza populace like the cowardly sociopaths that they are. IDF could very easily destroy the entirety of Gaza within a week if actual genocide was their intention. But genocide isn't their intention, hence the reason the entirety of Gaza hasn't been destroyed.
You missed the point completely.
You claimed a court ruled there was no genocide happening, therefore its also impossible for genocide to happen because court said so.
I just exposed faultiness of your argument.
I never said that and it wasn't my argument, so the only thing you've exposed is your penchant for strawmanning.
No the intent is to destroy Hamas who hide among the Gaza populace like the cowardly sociopaths that they are. IDF could very easily destroy the entirety of Gaza within a week if actual genocide was their intention. But genocide isn't their intention, hence the reason the entirety of Gaza hasn't been destroyed.
His definition/perception of genocide (at least in this case) is so broad there would really be no way for Israel to adequately respond to the Palestinian's aggression without committing genocide, so I wouldn't get too hung up on this.
Also, the oil tanker the Houthis hit is still burning, and all the oil could spill into the sea causing a major ecological disaster.
It is going to be very ironic when leftists (who simultaneous support the demise of the American Empire and ecological preservation) finally realize loss of the former is going to result in cataclysmic ecological degradation, as war explodes across the world in the vacuum of American power dissipating and lite
If the Pax Americana ceases to exist, we should end up with more local wars but lower risk of global war.
That wouldn't necessarily be a lot worse for the world (and local hegemonic powers would keep things under control after a troubled phase).
Pax Americana ending would though greatly and negatively impact economic globalization, the best development for humanity in the last couple of decades, and that is invariably bad for humanity.
If the Pax Americana ceases to exist, we should end up with more local wars but lower risk of global war.
That wouldn't necessarily be a lot worse for the world (and local hegemonic powers would keep things under control after a troubled phase).
Pax Americana ending would though greatly and negatively impact economic globalization, the best development for humanity in the last couple of decades, and that is invariably bad for humanity.
Yeah. And the wars, environmental deterioration and social collapse will follow the global economic collapse. I suspect if/when the American empire fully declines we are going to see a lot more Iran/Palestinian/Houthi type societies form; where tribal warfare, slavery, murdering gay people and basically turning all females into domestic sex slaves will become the norm.
You could always try politely asking me to clarify, but that’s something someone would do if they were actually curious about my positions. Your interests lie elsewhere clearly.
I have interacted with you before and know generally where you are coming from. You have been part of a cabal that got me banned under a different screen name (Kelhus maybe?), although I dont know your exact role in my banning.
I was mostly just criticizing Victor with that post. If you want to give him the benefit of the doubt that is your prerogative, but his bias is definitely to be hyper critical of (((Israeli's))) and mostly agnostic or supportive of much worse behavior from everyone else. You are free to determine for yourself why you think that is.
Victor’s driving ideology is his anger at the world/status quo. It manifests in anti Americanism, anti capitalism, anti-semitism, anti-corporations, and anti anything associated with the status quo powers that be.
His positions are predictable and completely void of first principles. This is why engaging with him is a waste of time unless you’re using him as a tool for mental masturbation either as a foil or as an echo chamber.
Also, the oil tanker the Houthis hit is still burning, and all the oil could spill into the sea causing a major ecological disaster.
The fire's been out for quite a few hours now.
Victor’s driving ideology is his anger at the world/status quo. It manifests in anti Americanism, anti capitalism, anti-semitism, anti-corporations, and anti anything associated with the status quo powers that be.
His positions are predictable and completely void of first principles. This is why engaging with him is a waste of time unless you’re using him as a tool for mental masturbation either as a foil or as an echo chamber.
no Im pretty sure anti-genocide is a good first principle
Also, when a nation state of 15 million people is told repeatedly by a smaller, technologically, militarily inferior neighbor they will be destroyed and that neighbor continually follows through with this threat to the best of their abilities, "genocide" of said neighbor until they lose the will/ability to follow through on their own genocidal urges, is the completely reasonable, rationale and expected response.
Well, that was a rather regrettable comment, though interesting and revealing of a certain mentality.
To be honest, if this is going to take decades most of us will probably lose interest. So it is going to be up to you to keep the fire burning and keep us all updated how the trial is going.
well, I am off to a poor start considering half this thread thinks Israel somehow won the trial already.
No the intent is to destroy Hamas who hide among the Gaza populace like the cowardly sociopaths that they are. IDF could very easily destroy the entirety of Gaza within a week if actual genocide was their intention. But genocide isn't their intention, hence the reason the entirety of Gaza hasn't been destroyed.
No the intent is to destroy as much as Gaza as possible parallel with destroying Hamas. And doing it in such a manner that still gets the money flowing from the USA to continue the destruction.
No intent? Who believes this besides Netanyahu supporters?
ya but they could do it faster. remember, its not genocide unless you kill as fast as possible.
Also, when a nation state of 15 million people is told repeatedly by a smaller, technologically, militarily inferior neighbor they will be destroyed and that neighbor continually follows through with this threat to the best of their abilities, "genocide" of said neighbor until they lose the will/ability to follow through on their own genocidal urges, is the completely reasonable, rationale and expected response.
To nobody's surprise, Dunyain is simply saying what other people here just are too afraid to say out loud.
Genociding your neighbour totally reasonable!
Dunyain is openly claiming genocide is reasonable and ok and should have been followed through 50 years ago. Team Netanyahu has no problem with Dunyain making these claims, because Dunyain is on their team.
ya but they could do it faster. remember, its not genocide unless you kill as fast as possible.
That was the most ridiculous rebuttle I've ever seen.
Hey we could have broken every bone in your body in about 3 days, we refrained from doing so, but we'll end up doing it over 3 months so that Corpus Vile will say intent was not shown!
No, if they wanted to completely destroy Gaza they could very easily do so. Intent is to destroy Hamas.
And doing it in such a manner that still gets the money flowing from the USA to continue the destruction.
Yes. AmeriKKKa bad and etc.
No intent? Who believes this besides Netanyahu supporters?
Court obviously believes it, as they haven't ruled genocide or called for a ceasefire.
