Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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the point of the atomic bombs was to kill as many civilians as possible. such a conclusion is not at all certain in the case of Oct 7. it looks to me like they wanted kill soldiers and take hostages.
incidentally, are Palestinians able to retire from Hamas in the eyes of yourself, Israel, or the West? or are they always marked for death? bc consistency is a bitch.
No lol if that was the point of atomic bombs they would have used them in Kyoto or Tokyo.
Anyway...
If we send UN troops in Gaza and the West Bank to jail all Hamas personnel and have actual elections, ofc Palestinians can then come clear of their Hamas past
100k people died in the firebombing of Tokyo. It was largely destroyed in March of 1945 (before the atomic bombs were ready) and the atomic bombs were dropped in August.
The point of the atomic bombing was to end the war without the losses from an invasion or extensive conventional bombing. Killing a lot of civilians was part of what was expected to force Japan to surrender. Probably sending a message to the USSR was part of the decision too.
not sure what you are belaboring. according to Shin Bet, no Hamas did not google and find out there was a music festival.
again, I just said it is worse if it was premeditated. are we now going to go 17 pages on why its not and then you call me a liar when I dont buy your opinions?
If you're going to quote my post and then reply to it I'd like to understand what point you are trying to make. These accusations coming from you immediately after you denied that there was any importance in the difference between Ukraine airspace and Russia airspace is especially gold; pure projection. If you don't want to belabor these discussion then be precise with your points instead of posting things with absolutely no attempt to tie them into the discussion and then teasing out what point you're actually driving at.
I just wanted to confirm that premeditated planning to send our scouts and drones to find a place with civilians to murder in a terrorist act is better somehow than predmeditated planning to google a place, send out scouts and drones to confirm that there are civilians there, and then murder the civilians. Somehow this distinction in your mind is a point that helps prove that Hamas was trying to target the military and somehow helps to disprove mets and my point that either way Hamas targeted civilians in their terrorist act.
100k people died in the firebombing of Tokyo. It was largely destroyed in March of 1945 (before the atomic bombs were ready) and the atomic bombs were dropped in August.
The point of the atomic bombing was to end the war without the losses from an invasion or extensive conventional bombing. Killing a lot of civilians was part of what was expected to force Japan to surrender. Probably sending a message to the USSR was part of the decision
Historians generally agree part of why the US avoided Tokyo is they didn’t want to accidentally kill off so much of the Japanese leadership (the emperor specifically) that there would be nobody left to surrender. They also started thinking about post war administration and didn’t want to destroy Japanes governing capacity entirely.
They avoided Kyoto pretty much because all the high ranking officials (including Sec of War) that’s been to Kyoto vehemently argued Kyoto’s too beautiful to be destroyed and that (correctly I think) destroying Kyoto would be roundly condemned even by American allies.
After that… they looked for spots where the atomic bombs would cause the most damage. Civilian deaths were absolutely part of the equation even though they also considered industrial capacity. The thing with total war, which WWII absolutely was, is that industrial capacity is effectively synonymous with population density.
Churchill also pushed for a quick invasion so USSR could lay claim to more of Japan
its worse if it was premeditated BlueGrassPlayer. thats what I said. keep asking!
also, I disagree with the framing of a terrorist attack with the intention of killing civilians. but I am using Western definitions where it is supposedly not a terrorist attack when Israel kills 95% civilians with intentional bombing. so I am just using that framing. consistency is hard for liberals. I get it. help me help you.
100k people died in the firebombing of Tokyo. It was largely destroyed in March of 1945 (before the atomic bombs were ready) and the atomic bombs were dropped in August.
Also, Kyoto wasn't bombed because of its cultural/historical value.
The campaign against Japan was deliberately intended to kill civilians. The US built mock-ups of Japanese homes to test out incendiary bombs.
The point of the atomic bombing was to end the war without the losses from an invasion or extensive conventional bombing.
This is true, which is why it absolutely doesn't follow that maximizing civilian loss was one of the purposes of dropping the A bombs.
Otherwise again, especially because we were able to firebomb Tokyo, we would have dropped the A bomb there obviously.
Anyway my claim was about the fact that Nagasaki as a target wasn't properly assessed in terms of war ending probability vs civilian loss (unlike Hiroshima which was), and because of that it was morally far less defensible
Also, Kyoto wasn't bombed because of its cultural/historical value.
The campaign against Japan was deliberately intended to kill civilians. The US built mock-ups of Japanese homes to test out incendiary bombs.
So they cared about the culture and history of the Japanese people, but not about actual Japanese people, very reasonable (????)
Ya she seems so unbiased. Lol. Liberals are so bloodthirsty.
prediction 1: JDiamond wont be reporting from Gaza much longer. this is the second time he exposed these genociders.
prediction 2: he will be replaced by someone very close to Israel who maybe even served in the IDF like that creep cjkeller.
Also, Kyoto wasn't bombed because of its cultural/historical value.
The campaign against Japan was deliberately intended to kill civilians. The US built mock-ups of Japanese homes to test out incendiary bombs.
Just so we’re clear on the context, by like 1942, after some accidental fire storms, both sides began to deliberately create conditions that could lead to fire storms. The gloves were off and total war where military production and civilian population were tightly meshed was on.
For some reason which hasn't been stated, "premeditated" (not the actual use of the word, but the new definition which means the absence of google) is worse. Got it, thank you. 👍
What I was asking about is what "premeditated" means to you, which you've now clarified:
Scouting location, sending terrorists there === not "premeditated"
Googling location, scouting location, sending terrorists there === "premeditated"
Somewhere in using Google lies the extra evil. Good to know.
Somehow this all ties into whether or not Hamas was targeting civilians when they attacked the music festival, which they knew was a music festival whether or not they Google it. It's a hell of an argument.
Ww2 stuff: I visited Forst Siloso a few weeks ago and they has a section on Operation Zipper which was canceled due to the war ending as well as very few casualties for Operation Tiderace.
The casualties would not have come just from the invasion of Japan.
For some reason which hasn't been stated, "premeditated" (not the actual use of the word, but the new definition which means the absence of google) is worse. Got it, thank you. 👍
What I was asking about is what "premeditated" means to you, which you've now clarified:
Scouting location, sending terrorists there === not "premeditated"
Googling location, scouting location, sending terrorists there === "premeditated"
Somewhere in using Google lie
what are you even talking about? Shin Bet said they did not know about the rave and did not plan to attack it. to me, that means it was not premeditated. if that means it was actually premediated to you then ok, thats fine.
its not your first insane view point and surely wont be your last. how many pages you want to go with this? I can do semantics all day with you and I know how much you love that ****.
you are the one who brought up google not me.
its quite funny how in both wars you advocate for well...more war and killing. liberals are just so bloodthirsty its insane. but its fine, you have been conditioned this way from birth and it is indeed hard to actually conjure and independent thought and analysis.
From your source:
Senior Israeli security officials estimate that Hamas found out about the Nova music festival through drones or from those flying in parachutes, and directed the terrorists to the location using their comms system
I would love to hear the semantics about how that is not premeditated.
I don't know how calling this premeditated, or correctly pointing out that it was targeting civilians, is advocating for more war. Seems like a baseless ad hominem which has nothing to do with the conversation.
they planned the attack for like years in advance. on the day of the attack they adjusted plans and went to the rave when they noticed it. according to Shin Bet ofc so take it with a grain of salt obv but just assuming it is true.
In other words the attack was premeditated.
not on the rave
BlueGrassPlay right now
if I had to guess they intended to murder soldiers and take hostages. seems that some fighters proceeded to commit war crime and we will never know the extent or which ones were involved (remember that many resistance groups other than Hamas were involved).
Your original statement that was contested.
Your own source says: "Senior Israeli security officials estimate that Hamas found out about the Nova music festival through drones or from those flying in parachutes, and directed the terrorists to the location using their comms system" in other words: PREMEDITATED. No it's not as premeditated as their original terrorist attack, but it's still premeditated.
Words have meaning. No, this wasn't the original target they planned years ahead, but they had a plan to attack on that day. They switched that plan after having a preexisting plan to attack civilians on that day, surveying the site discovering it was a music festival, they discussed the site deciding they could do more damage there, they then diverted their troops there to attack it. That is absolutely premeditation. If the USA military did this you would not be saying it was a spontaneous incident. (Also it's definitely worse, which is the opposite of what you're suggesting, but you still haven't clarified why you think this is better.)
nah. not premeditated.
Im military terms the music festival was a target of opportunity, which is a target that presents itself after an operation begins and was not a part of the initial attack plan. Premeditated refers to something that is thought about, planned, and developed prior to the operation beginning. Of course someone has to order the troops to attack a target of opportunity. But that doesnt mean it was premeditated.
If the mission is to attack and kill enemy on hills 101 and 102, those are premediated objectives. Once the attack kicks off, if lead elements report enemy on Hill 203 also, and a company is directed to hill 203, that's not usually considered premeditated. Its a target of opportunity that arose unexpectedly.
Interesting, thanks. I guess I might have been wrong.
So despite over a year of planning to carry out a mission on that exact day, with those forces, using those exact means, the fact that they scouted a new area, discussed moving the mission to attack that area, and then launched the mission to attack the new area, means that it was not premeditated and it was an attack of opportunity?
At what point would it have moved from an attack of opportunity to a premeditated attack?
(Still not seeing how being premeditated vs not being is relevant to whether or not it targeted civilians or military, and this still makes it seem worse, but whatever.)
