Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
23645 Replies
If Hamas refuses to surrender and takes cover amongst the civilian population, and Israel refuses to end the war until Hamas is totally annihilated, at what point does it become conclusive that Hamas cannot be destroyed without genocide? And if it is determined that a genocide is necessary to destroy Hamas, do people like Mets who are hardliners still support it?
Where’s the line, I guess I’m asking.
It doesn't, it's immaterial.
Not quite. They left the case open, and advised that Israel should avoid any such thing, and should 'punish' comments by the Israeli president and defence minister which appeared to advocate it.
Saying "it didn't find any" as a conclusion statement is on its face a dishonest way to frame the situation. The ICJ hasn't made any firm conclusions yet one way or the other.
Your question is fine as a philosophical experiment, but practically speaking it's not grounded in reality.
There's no version in the counterinsurgency model where genocide happens. It didn't happen in Iraq or Afghanistan and it won't happen here. Civilians dying is one thing. Genocide is another thing. The IDF securing Gaza with their military in a 2024 step 1 means aid directly to the people (without Hamas intercepting it) . And then yes as Hamas is rooted out, some people tragically will die (on all sides). But let's label that with the appropriate label (which is all that everyone is asking the ICJ to do).
If you want to get philosophical though, maybe I lob one right back at you:
Hamas is a death cult. They have shown that their goal is to use civilian deaths as part of their endless campaign for a great return. Obviously Jewish lives have no value to them, but Palestinian lives don't either. You don't run your military arm the way they do without that being the case. This is peak radical Islam, where martyrdom and strapping kids with bombs is your go-to. And since their time horizons are near infinite, they can continue the model of mass appropriation of relief funding to dig tunnels, make rockets, fund suicide attacks, etc...literally forever. So knowing this, how much short term pain is worth getting rid of that forever, if you look at a 75 year timeline after? What is that worth? Theoretically speaking if you knew that "the day after" lead to a peaceful self-governed Gaza where kids had futures beyond martyrdom, what price would be worth paying? Because everyone knows that Israel is fighting for the Israeli people. But if Israel does succeed in eliminating Hamas, it's also Gaza's long term future that may stand to benefit hugely. Another 75+ years of how they were going (granted they're 20 of those 75) now certainly doesn't seem like much of an end goal. This is of course purely a thought exercise, because no human can look at this tragedy this close up and think anything more than horror. Nevertheless, there will be long term outcomes...
They told Israel they can continue the war but to be more cautious
I honestly don't care about other ethnostates as long as the US doesn't become one
I keep asking, is south Korea such a bad place? Portugal? both are ethno states, why are we trying to depict them as bad places in any sense?
there is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with ethnostates
I agree, we don't need corpus vile stile arguments to be pro israel
the line is guaranteeing the annihilation of hamas.
at the lowest possible cost for the civilian, non hamas defending, population.
if the lowest cost is the annihilation of the civilian population as well, so be it.
The life of Israelis is worth more than the life of civilian Palestinians.
why? because they are our allies and Palestinians are not.
if you are our ally, we will draft policies giving more worth to your civilian lives. explicitly. without remorse or shame. human life isn't all worth the same. human life aligned with the west is morally worth more than human life not explicitly bending the knee to the American empire.
yes but that's what happen when you defer to a court inhabited by people who hate you.
we should never have opened international law to countries that don't absolutely share our core values, but that river has been crossed (we can go back but we need some shock to do so)
sorry but no. and I think you can believe I really don't share victor value.
but I appreciate his tentative approach to factual truth.
the court didn't answer the genocide question yet. it could have dismissed it but it refused to do so. it kept the trial going.
it ordered a couple of things , release of hostages, mandated controls of troops and leadership language to Israelis, and mandated aid access for gazean civilians to Israelis.
Well they aren't releasing all the hostages so the war isn't going to end
Hard disagree (unsurprisingly).
Racism is bad and also very stupid scientifically.
only a few places worldwide can attract the best and the brightest.
everyone else gets the garbage.
this has nothing to do about racism: all places generate some exceptional people (at most we could claim some places generate more or less, but it doesn't matter).
most people are garbage in all countries. dead weights ,net tax takers, a negative for society in aggregate. and the more we move toward post industrial society, the more only a few contribute everything that matters to society while everyone else is simple getting carried.
if every country tries to be america, most places still fail, but they flooded their countries with parasites and end up a lot worse than they would have been without opening up.
you can't generalize the American dream to every country, it doesn't work.
that is a competitive policy that only works inasmuch as the most talented people elsewhere become motivated to come to you, because you create conditions for best people to flourish (which means less redistribution, more gains of talent staying with the talented person and so on).
if you can't compete for the best, the second best option is dealing with your own properly, being extremely selective on entrants
it is very very clear that even if Hamas released all hostages today, Israel would still go to the jugular trying to kill the Hamas snake.
it is not rational for Hamas to release the hostages, and not rational for Israel to stop the fighting (as long as they properly assess to have some chance of annihilating Hamas, at any cost).
Israel doesnt care about Hamas. they care about driving the Palestinians out and stealing the land. they have made that abundantly clear.
Premeditation just means forethought and planning, both of which are easily satisfied for the attack on the festival in at least two alternative analyses.
1. The premeditation analysis is easily satisfied by Hamas directing fighters to the festival.
2. That’s to say nothing of the premeditation analysis being satisfied by Hamas clearly intended to inflict maximum civilian casualty and crimes against humanity. That they found more targets than expected doesn’t make the crime/attacks any less premeditated.
In military “law” terms, an operation planned to find and kill as many “unknown targets of opportunity” as the operatives could find would satisfy “premeditation” analysis when they find and kill civilians. Maybe premeditation means something even more specific in “military” terms but if that’s the case, the military usage is asinine and not applicable to the thread.
Let me put yet in another way. Hamas premeditated to kill as many civilians as possible on October 7th.
This whole argument is asinine and I shouldn’t have made this post.
Hamas premeditated to kill as many civilians as possible on October 7th
gonna need a cite on that extraordinary claim big boy
gee, wonder why the Gazans and Hamas are doing armed resistance
But even it is worth more your conclusion doesn't follow. Because if all the Palestinians don't die it doesn't mean that Israelis will. They could easily avoid death by leaving the country. Thus, for your equation to work you must say that an Israeli is morally right to kill an innocent Palestinian to avoid having to leave Israel. Which would mean that his life is not just worth more but worth A LOT more.
It wasn’t a challenge. I’m asking where the line is for “acceptable” civilian death.
Victor might say none. Luciom might say all. Where’s the line? Who gets to draw it?
I think bombing the building would have been far better if the goal was to cause terror.
Weren't you telling me a few days ago that they weren't allowing Palestinians to leave, even to countries other than Israel? Now they're trying to drive them out?