Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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If Hamas refuses to surrender and takes cover amongst the civilian population, and Israel refuses to end the war until Hamas is totally annihilated, at what point does it become conclusive that Hamas cannot be destroyed without genocide? And if it is determined that a genocide is necessary to destroy Hamas, do people like Mets who are hardliners still support it?
Where’s the line, I guess I’m asking.
if they didnt think there was genocide then they would have thrown the case out.
what they literally said was that there was "plausible" evidence of genocide and Israel needs to stop.
Not quite. They left the case open, and advised that Israel should avoid any such thing, and should 'punish' comments by the Israeli president and defence minister which appeared to advocate it.
No it isn't at all, the court did not, repeat not make a finding of genocide and you all people accusing anyone of being dishonest is especially rich.
Saying "it didn't find any" as a conclusion statement is on its face a dishonest way to frame the situation. The ICJ hasn't made any firm conclusions yet one way or the other.
If Hamas refuses to surrender and takes cover amongst the civilian population, and Israel refuses to end the war until Hamas is totally annihilated, at what point does it become conclusive that Hamas cannot be destroyed without genocide? And if it is determined that a genocide is necessary to destroy Hamas, do people like Mets who are hardliners still support it?
Your question is fine as a philosophical experiment, but practically speaking it's not grounded in reality.
There's no version in the counterinsurgency model where genocide happens. It didn't happen in Iraq or Afghanistan and it won't happen here. Civilians dying is one thing. Genocide is another thing. The IDF securing Gaza with their military in a 2024 step 1 means aid directly to the people (without Hamas intercepting it) . And then yes as Hamas is rooted out, some people tragically will die (on all sides). But let's label that with the appropriate label (which is all that everyone is asking the ICJ to do).
If you want to get philosophical though, maybe I lob one right back at you:
Hamas is a death cult. They have shown that their goal is to use civilian deaths as part of their endless campaign for a great return. Obviously Jewish lives have no value to them, but Palestinian lives don't either. You don't run your military arm the way they do without that being the case. This is peak radical Islam, where martyrdom and strapping kids with bombs is your go-to. And since their time horizons are near infinite, they can continue the model of mass appropriation of relief funding to dig tunnels, make rockets, fund suicide attacks, etc...literally forever. So knowing this, how much short term pain is worth getting rid of that forever, if you look at a 75 year timeline after? What is that worth? Theoretically speaking if you knew that "the day after" lead to a peaceful self-governed Gaza where kids had futures beyond martyrdom, what price would be worth paying? Because everyone knows that Israel is fighting for the Israeli people. But if Israel does succeed in eliminating Hamas, it's also Gaza's long term future that may stand to benefit hugely. Another 75+ years of how they were going (granted they're 20 of those 75) now certainly doesn't seem like much of an end goal. This is of course purely a thought exercise, because no human can look at this tragedy this close up and think anything more than horror. Nevertheless, there will be long term outcomes...
It's similar in "why does the us ally with sa" in that it's a question with an answer. Sure. The answer is completely different though. US allies with SA because of oil. Simple as that.
Why does an Über right-wing political group with an antisemitic history want to ally with Israel now? Answering that question is not a dumb exercise. They ally with Israel now not for some economic advantage for the association of Israel and Sweden, but
I honestly don't care about other ethnostates as long as the US doesn't become one
I honestly don't care about other ethnostates as long as the US doesn't become one
I keep asking, is south Korea such a bad place? Portugal? both are ethno states, why are we trying to depict them as bad places in any sense?
there is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with ethnostates
the line is guaranteeing the annihilation of hamas.
at the lowest possible cost for the civilian, non hamas defending, population.
if the lowest cost is the annihilation of the civilian population as well, so be it.
The life of Israelis is worth more than the life of civilian Palestinians.
why? because they are our allies and Palestinians are not.
if you are our ally, we will draft policies giving more worth to your civilian lives. explicitly. without remorse or shame. human life isn't all worth the same. human life aligned with the west is morally worth more than human life not explicitly bending the knee to the American empire.
yes but that's what happen when you defer to a court inhabited by people who hate you.
we should never have opened international law to countries that don't absolutely share our core values, but that river has been crossed (we can go back but we need some shock to do so)
It isn't different. 😆
So yeah you're a liar and evidently you don't know the meaning of words.
The court was to examine the case for genocide. It didn't find any. You'll just have to engage in other forms of anti Semitism, I'm afraid.
sorry but no. and I think you can believe I really don't share victor value.
but I appreciate his tentative approach to factual truth.
the court didn't answer the genocide question yet. it could have dismissed it but it refused to do so. it kept the trial going.
it ordered a couple of things , release of hostages, mandated controls of troops and leadership language to Israelis, and mandated aid access for gazean civilians to Israelis.
Well they aren't releasing all the hostages so the war isn't going to end
only a few places worldwide can attract the best and the brightest.
everyone else gets the garbage.
this has nothing to do about racism: all places generate some exceptional people (at most we could claim some places generate more or less, but it doesn't matter).
most people are garbage in all countries. dead weights ,net tax takers, a negative for society in aggregate. and the more we move toward post industrial society, the more only a few contribute everything that matters to society while everyone else is simple getting carried.
if every country tries to be america, most places still fail, but they flooded their countries with parasites and end up a lot worse than they would have been without opening up.
you can't generalize the American dream to every country, it doesn't work.
that is a competitive policy that only works inasmuch as the most talented people elsewhere become motivated to come to you, because you create conditions for best people to flourish (which means less redistribution, more gains of talent staying with the talented person and so on).
if you can't compete for the best, the second best option is dealing with your own properly, being extremely selective on entrants
it is very very clear that even if Hamas released all hostages today, Israel would still go to the jugular trying to kill the Hamas snake.
it is not rational for Hamas to release the hostages, and not rational for Israel to stop the fighting (as long as they properly assess to have some chance of annihilating Hamas, at any cost).
Israel doesnt care about Hamas. they care about driving the Palestinians out and stealing the land. they have made that abundantly clear.
Yeah, the use of the term in legal proceedings is different from the military. I think the military differentiates this way based on my experience preparing and executing plans and operations during my 22-year Army career. The term Target of Opportunity itself means a target that was unknown during planning and therefore an attack on it couldnt be considered premeditated, which is defined as the thinking about and planning to do something b
Premeditation just means forethought and planning, both of which are easily satisfied for the attack on the festival in at least two alternative analyses.
1. The premeditation analysis is easily satisfied by Hamas directing fighters to the festival.
2. That’s to say nothing of the premeditation analysis being satisfied by Hamas clearly intended to inflict maximum civilian casualty and crimes against humanity. That they found more targets than expected doesn’t make the crime/attacks any less premeditated.
In military “law” terms, an operation planned to find and kill as many “unknown targets of opportunity” as the operatives could find would satisfy “premeditation” analysis when they find and kill civilians. Maybe premeditation means something even more specific in “military” terms but if that’s the case, the military usage is asinine and not applicable to the thread.
Let me put yet in another way. Hamas premeditated to kill as many civilians as possible on October 7th.
This whole argument is asinine and I shouldn’t have made this post.
Hamas premeditated to kill as many civilians as possible on October 7th
gonna need a cite on that extraordinary claim big boy
gee, wonder why the Gazans and Hamas are doing armed resistance
if the lowest cost is the annihilation of the civilian population as well, so be it.
The life of Israelis is worth more than the life of civilian Palestinians.
But even it is worth more your conclusion doesn't follow. Because if all the Palestinians don't die it doesn't mean that Israelis will. They could easily avoid death by leaving the country. Thus, for your equation to work you must say that an Israeli is morally right to kill an innocent Palestinian to avoid having to leave Israel. Which would mean that his life is not just worth more but worth A LOT more.
Israel doesnt care about Hamas. they care about driving the Palestinians out and stealing the land. they have made that abundantly clear.
Weren't you telling me a few days ago that they weren't allowing Palestinians to leave, even to countries other than Israel? Now they're trying to drive them out?
